Subscribe89th Division Site ‘Confirms’ Obama’s Story
[Please scroll down for the update to this article.]
As you probably know by now, we (and others) noted Mr. Obama’s claim in his Memorial Day speech to have an uncle who liberated Auschwitz in WWII.
The Obama camp have since stated that Mr. Obama misspoke, and that he was talking about his grandmother’s brother “Charlie Payne.”
They say Mr. Payne served in the 89th Infantry Division which liberated the Ohrdruf concentration camp, which was a satellite of the Buchenwald prison network near Weimar, Germany.
In our efforts to fact this hitherto unmentioned fact about Mr. Obama’s ancestors, we contacted a site which purports to honor the 89th Infantry Division:
Introduction
This website has been created to honor the service of the 89th Infantry Division during the Second World War. The 89th, known as the Rolling W, served with distinction during combat operations in Europe from March-May, 1945.
This website was created by 89th veteran Raymond E. Kitchell and his son Mark R. Kitchell. We are grateful to the contributions of histories, stories and pictures from numerous 89th Infantry veterans and their families, and from the 89th Infantry Division Society.
Granted this site is not the 89th Division’s official website. But other searches via the National Archives and the Kansas WWII veterans sites have yet to produce a Charles Payne who would have been at Buchenwald.
Moreover, this site claims to welcome queries about members of the 89th Division:
To the extent time and capacity exists, we will try to answer questions and/or direct inquiries to prime and knowledgeable sources where available and welcome comments and new inputs. We will add to the website content as time and resources permit.
Please send all emails to:
Webmaster, Raymond E. Kitchell
markkitchell@yahoo.comCo-Webmaster, Mark R. Kitchell
markkitchell@yahoo.com
So in the interest of finding out the facts about Mr. Payne, I sent Mr. Kitchell and son the following email:
—– Original Message —–
From: Steve Gilbert
To: markkitchell@yahoo.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 6:14 AM
Subject: Any Record Of Charles W Payne?Mr. Kitchell,
As you may have heard by now, Barack Obama has claimed that his great uncle Charlie Payne was a member of the 89th Div that liberated Buchenwald.
According to records his full name is either Charles W Payne or Charles T Payne (most likely the former), and he was born in 1924 — and he is still alive today.
He most likely was from Kansas at the time of enlistment.
Do you have any record of this gentleman?
Thank you,
Steve Gilbert
sweetness-light.comPS - If you go to my website, you will see that I was probably the first to note the error in Mr. Obama’s first claims about his “uncle.”
Obama Claims His Uncle Liberated Auschwitz | Sweetness & Light
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/obama-claims-his-uncle-liberated-auschwitz
And Mr. Kitchell’s helpful reply:
Please crawl back under the rock you came out from.
Good day
Raymond Kitchell, veteran 89th Inf Div
I have since been sent this followup email:
From: Mark Kitchell [mailto:markkitchell@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 10:47 AM
To: Steve Gilbert
Subject: Re: Any Record Of Charles W Payne?I don’t claim to represent anyone. You are the one who came to my son and I asking for information.
Please spend ample time chasing down the lies fed to you by chickenhawks Bush & Co. Like 90% of this administration, they don’t have the foggiest idea what we went through or what we saw at Ohrdruf.
I wonder how many people who visit the 89th Infantry site and support Mr. Kitchell’s work realize his politics are those of Cindy Sheehan?
Update!
As noted in the comments below, S&L correspondent “Cigarskunk” has since emailed Mr. Kitchell and gotten a confirmation (of sorts) for Mr. Payne’s service in the 89th:
—– Original Message —–
From: cigarskunk
To: markkitchell@yahoo.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 6:38 PM
Subject: Searching for Charles W PayneDear Sirs,
In light of the recent controversy over the military service of Barrak Obama’s grandfather, Charles W Payne, I was hoping to contact you to get some kind of verification of his membership in the 89th.
I’ve checked the records of http://www.kshs.org/genealogis…..p;branch=N and they only list him as being in the Navy.
I would like to get a second source to confirm that Obama is still lying on this subject as my grandfathers, father and uncles all served in WWII, Korea and Vietnam and I don’t particularly care for politicians lying about the service of family members to further thier political agendas.
Thank you in advance!
From: markkitchell@yahoo.com
To: cigarskunk
Subject: Re: Searching for Charles W Payne
Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 18:52:48 +0200You are the one who is lying. Mr. Payne served in the 89th Divison, 355th Infantry Regiment, Company K.
And indeed, Mr. Kitchell has now updated his website thusly:
Introduction
Concerning the service of Mr. Charles Payne: C.T. Payne was a soldier in the 89th Infantry Division. He served in the 355th Infantry Regiment, Company K. The 355th Infantry Regiment was the unit to liberate Ohrdruf. Mr. Payne was there.
We are grateful to Mr. Kitchell for this information, however grudgingly given.
But it would seem that all Mr. Kitchell did was go to the listing on his site which we had already visited. And that only lists one C.T. Payne.
Mr. Kitchell has still not produced any evidence to substantiate that this Mr. Payne is actually Mr. Obama’s great uncle, such as a serial number.
And, as we have noted, in most genealogy charts he is listed as Charles W. Payne rather than as Charles T.
Of course it would also be helpful if the Obama camp would tell us his great uncle’s full name and date of birth and other such handy details.
Related Articles:
74 Responses to “89th Division Site ‘Confirms’ Obama’s Story”
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May 28th, 2008 at 11:23 am
Well, at least he was open minded…
May 28th, 2008 at 11:52 am
Forgetting for a moment the rather rude response from the Sheehanite…
I can almost see the way this is going to play out when it comes to light that there was no Charles ‘Charlie’ Payne that liberated Buchenwald (Almost, because there might not be any follow-up on this story from anyone other than Sweetness and Light). Obama is going to do the exact same thing that he did with his spiritual advisor and pastor - denounce any knowledge of what was REALLY the truth. Because, you see, Charlie Payne IS the ‘crazy ol’ uncle’ in the attic (now we know who Obama was referring to when talking about his friendship with Rev. Wright). What Obama is going to try and do is say that he just believed his crazy ol’ uncle when Uncle Charlie said that he was at Buchenwald - that there was no way that he could have known that his uncle was telling a ‘war story’ - that the man he now knows is not the same man he had known all his life. Poor Obama the victim, hoodwinked by a crazy ol’ uncle (just imagine what he’ll believe when he sits down with Crazy Ol’ Uncle Mahmoud Ahmadinejad…)
And Obama’s not the only victim - why look, Uncle Charlie really THOUGHT he liberated Buchenwald. It must have been the stress of war that caused him to think this. In fact, it brings to light the tremedous pressure and enormous strain soilders are under - we need to bring the troops home from Iraq and Afghanistan before there are any more crazy ol’ Uncle Charlie’s that have to be locked away in the attic.
Sad, really…
Joe Arctain
May 28th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Glad I don`t have this assclown running a website representing a division I served in…he was probably as big an asshole then as he is now…in the rear with the gear hiding behind a rock with a white flag in his back pocket “just in case”!
May 28th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
I keep wanting to respond to this but everything that comes to my mind is just mean and nasty and I can’t write it. Thanks for your efforts SG. This just reminds me of the old saying, “You can’t judge a book by its cover.” I guess nowadays, you can’t judge a website by its ‘nice’ appearance either.
May 28th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
“Like 90% of this administration, they don’t have the foggiest idea what we went through or what we saw at Ohrdruf.”
Not to diminish anyone’s service, but the 89th only got to Europe in March of 1945 and saw less than two months of the war.
Also, only a handful of soldiers went into Ohrdruf, and from what I have read they were only there a very brief time.
May 28th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
You might want to try this method..although this is fairly old information
contact
US Army Ct. Military History
1099 14th street NW.
Washington DC, 2005-3402
Unit histories phone (202-504-5420
or
USA MILITARY HISTORY INSDT.
ATTN” HISTORICAL REF. BRANCH
BULIDING 22 UPTON HALL
CARLISLE BARRACKS, PA. 17013
(717) 245-3611
fAX (717)245-3711
FAIRLY OLD INFO..BUT PERHAPS HELPFUL
IT IS VERY UNFORTUNATE THAT THE FAMILY TRYING TO HONOR THE HISTORY OF THE 89TH..PUT POLITICS IN THE FOREFRONT..
and..haha…looks like they responded in the inquiry on their website…
May 28th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
I am confused. I thought the Great Uncle’s name was/is Ralph W. E.. Dunham, Jr., brother of Obama’s grandfather, Stanley A. Dunham. Ralph was inducted on May 28, 1942 in Kansas (record with the Kansas Historical Society WWII records as Ralph E Dunham Jr) and served with the 89th when they liberated Ohrdruf, a smaller camp that was part of Buchenwald. Stanley’s record is there also. At least this is the info I had before I went to bed last night. Charlie Payne is a new name to me since yesterday. What’d I miss?
May 28th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
The reason Charlie E. Payne comes into play is that Burton who represents the Obama campaign said at Politico that the great uncle in question is from the grandmother side of the family tree. So that eliminates both the grandfather and his older brother who served in the army unless Burton got his facts wrong.
RiehlWorld has tracked the records for the grandmother and she has a brother named Charles E. Payne, however Kansas records for WWII vets show no army record for that name but they do show a Navy record under that name.
Few would disagree that the Navy was not likely involved in freeing the camps directly.
However one commentor at another site has found an army name match for Payne but the birth year is off by a few and it is from a DC database rather than the Kansas history.
May 28th, 2008 at 1:48 pm
“I am confused. I thought the Great Uncle’s name was/is Ralph W. E.. Dunham, Jr., brother of Obama’s grandfather, Stanley A. Dunham. Ralph was inducted on May 28, 1942 in Kansas (record with the Kansas Historical Society WWII records as Ralph E Dunham Jr) and served with the 89th when they liberated Ohrdruf, a smaller camp that was part of Buchenwald.”
You are confused. The Obama camp has been clear (as clear as they ever are) that they are talking about Obama’s grandmother’s brother, “Charlie Payne.”
Moreover, from what I have seen there is no evidence that Stanley’s brother was in the 89th. And I notice you didn’t provide a link to substantiate your claim.
May 28th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
“RiehlWorld has tracked the records for the grandmother and she has a brother named Charles E. Payne.”
You mean Charles W. Payne, and we had that information long ago.
May 28th, 2008 at 1:51 pm
Monkey see, monkey do - I decided to send them an email of my own and here’s the response I got -
I’m sending a follow up email asking for verification above and beyond his word. ;-)
May 28th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
“However one commentor at another site has found an army name match for Payne but the birth year is off by a few and it is from a DC database rather than the Kansas history.”
I have searched the NARAL report using every possible combination. Using Charlie, using Kansas, using W, using 1924.
And none of them turn up anyone who fits the Obama great uncle.
Granted the enlistment records are said to be missing as much as 13% of the inductees, due to key punch card malfunctions.
But what are the odds that Obama’s great uncle’s records would be missing?
May 28th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Good work, CS.
I don’t know why Mr. Kitchell could not just tell me that in our exchange.
Still, it would be nice to have some verification, such as a serial number.
Especially in view of Mr. Kitchell’s political leanings.
May 28th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
‘Fraid I find that Kitchell guy a bit off his nut. “…they don’t have the foggiest idea what we went through or what we saw at Ohrdruf.” Two months combat? Hello? I used to know a grunch of WWII guys… 1st Armored, 3rd Armored, 101 ABN, 29th Div. etc. who ‘been there, done that’ in N. Africa & Europe w/o that kind’a attitude. Obama was obviously wingin’ it… as usual. NObama is possibly the ‘worst’ candidate for PotUS in US history… ‘Gotta be the worst in mine. What are these Obamanuts thinkin’?
May 28th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
The only link I have is the one from the Kansas Historical Society WWII Records and what I picked up yesterday in comments at Ace’s and JOM.
Dunham, Ralph E. Inducted 28 May 1942, Army 37203549 Registered, order # 1180 Mound City, Linn Co. (Board # 1) Serial # also assigned to Lawrence W. Solomon
At this point, I take everything coming out of the Obama campaign with a grain of salt, but this confusion seems needless and should be easily verifiable and I just want to get it right.
May 28th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
P2P, I meant you should link to your source for the claim that Mr. Dunham was in the 89th.
May 28th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
FWIW, there was a fire at the records center outside KC that destroyed a lot of Army records. The other services lost some but not as many.
Tom
May 28th, 2008 at 2:24 pm
“FWIW, there was a fire at the records center outside KC that destroyed a lot of Army records.”
You mean St. Louis:
1973 ST LOUIS FIRE AND LOST RECORDS - National Veterans Legal Services Program (NVLSP)
http://www.nvlsp.org/Informati.....ECORDS.htm
This came up a lot during the tracking of Mr. Kerry’s military career.
May 28th, 2008 at 2:31 pm
Perhaps their hostility is due to their being the source for this “Payne” data?
Why does Mark Kitchell respond in the first person rather than his father?
“Like 90% of this administration, they don’t have the foggiest idea what we went through or what we saw at Ohrdruf.”
May 28th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
The complete service records should be available thru the National Archives if you have enough identifying info including proof of death. If the person is still alive, then the records are confidential to all but the service member. As to proof of the 89th, that is more questionable. Several at JOM were working on finding that yesterday, but I bailed out of the thread before anything was nailed down definitively.
I have been a genealogist for over 35 yeas and I find the entire Obama pedigree info to be strange. Strange in the fact that it is so sparse and so poorly sourced. And weird because an event like being there at the liberation of a camp is something most genealogists and family researchers would normally highlight in a big way.
The other problem is that Obama claims his grandfather was with Patton, and Patton was at Ohrdruf, but then there is the question of whether Stanley Dunham ever saw any combat.
I’m just gathering facts, BTW, and not promoting one position over another.
May 28th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
This is the latest on the Kitchell site:
Concerning the service of Mr. Charles Payne: C.T. Payne was a soldier in the 89th Infantry Division. He served in the 355th Infantry Regiment, Company K. The 355th Infantry Regiment was the unit to liberate Ohrdruf. Mr. Payne was there.
Two problems: no credible source and Mrs. Dunham’s brother’s name was Charles W. Payne.
May 28th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
Just to follow-up on some of the potential for missing records or errors at the NARA’s list, here is what they say about it:
May 28th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
“Two problems: no credible source and Mrs. Dunham’s brother’s name was Charles W. Payne.”
On some Obama ancestry sites his name is given as Charles T. Payne.
Still, a serial number would be nice.
May 28th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
“Why does Mark Kitchell respond in the first person rather than his father?”
He may just use his son’s email address.
He signed his email as Raymond.
May 28th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Thanks SG, body shot, memory shot… They are both in Missouri and not to put too fine a point on it St Louis is outside KC. LOL!!!!
Tom
May 28th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
OK, here’s the verification he provided - I recomended that he scan and post the page from the book on his website so folks will stop pestering him -
So now all we’ve got to do is find the book and confirm he’s telling the truth.
May 28th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
Yet another great uncle comes out of the woodwork.
From CNN:
He took a camera with him into combat?
May 28th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
I am having a great deal of difficulty with verfication of this Charles T. Payne, because according to genealogy website his mother had one brother Charles W. Payne.
Rolla Charles PAYNE and Leona MCCURRY married in Kansas about 1922 and had the following children:
i. Madelyn PAYNE
ii. Charles W. PAYNE born about 1924.
iii. Arlene PAYNE born about 1926
Now there is a Jon Payne who claims to be Charles T. Payne’s brother:
http://cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/2.....e-mistake/
I really hope someone can verify if the great uncle is Charles W. or Charles T. and who the heck is Jon?
May 28th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
I’m really rather surprised at how hostile this Kitchell guy seems to be. It is completely contrary to my own experience when contacting either military or civilian record keepers. All I can think is that he has been bombarded in the last couple of days and is frustrated. Still.
May 28th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
CS, just a html note — < blockquote > creates quotes — not < b >.
May 28th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
There is a Charles T. PAYNE was born about June 1861 in Missouri and died sometime after the 1930 census where he is enumerated with his eldest daughter Lillie in Kansas City, Wyandotte County, Kansas. But he died in before the war.
May 28th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
“He took a camera with him into combat?”
Combat photogs (participartory journalist) are a normal part of combat operations. Of course, combat photogs would have been attached to the field Army from 161st, 162d, 163d, or 164th Signal Companies - which would leave Uncle Charlie out of the mix (since he was supposedly attached to the 89th Division, 355th Infantry, K Company).
Of course, he could have brought a camera from back home into combat, or even picked one up - though I would be hard pressed to believe that an infantry PFC would have gone through the trouble to supplement his regular duties (you know, the ones that caused him to hole up in the attic when he returned…) with snapping pictures.
And as far as the unofficial 89th site - rudeness and name-calling don’t help bolster believeability - it only goes to further exacerbate the problem. Just post your proof (a list of names doesn’t prove much). It would have been better for the purveyors of the unofficial 89th website to just say: “Hey, there was a C.T. Payne attached to the 355th, K Company during the liberation of Ohrdruf - this might have been the Charles Payne that Obama referred to when he spoke about his uncle’s experience in WWII”, because that’s the extent of the ‘proof’ that the unofficial website has put forth.
Obama has put his Crazy Ol’ Uncle story out there twice - once as a way to describe his spiritual mentor and pastor (would you describe your pastor that way???), and once to describe a family member.
Now we all have those members of our family that we’d rather not talk about in polite company. But we also don’t hold them up as heroes no more than we hold up racists as spiritual advisors. We try our best to keep them in the proverbial attic (or in Obama’s case, the literal attic). We definately do NOT use them as a way to gain ‘patriotism by relation’ - which is exactly what Obama tried to do with the ‘crazy old uncle’ story (as someone else pointed out).
May 28th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
Wonder if Genealogy.com could help…about 2 years ago they had a “free” month where you could enter any info about anyone who served in WWI or WWII and they’d provide info from sources they’d obtained - from the DOD?? I don’t remember…I tried unsuccessfully to find my Dad’s records. Maybe unsuccessful because he was originally National Guard, and was in one of two units drafted into regular Army as a complete unit. That may have resulted in my putting in info that just didn’t work. Or maybe I just didn’t fill it out right anyway…!
May 28th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
Charles T Payne and Charles W Payne do not seem to be the same person. There are more than one pedigrees and they all show Charles W Payne as the brother of Madelyn (Payne) Dunham, son of Rolla Charles and Leona (McCurry) Payne. Born abt. 1924, Kansas. But other than the three, it is like he doesn’t exist. I couldn’t even find a record in the IGI.
May 28th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
Census record:
1930 United States Federal Census
about Madelyn Payne
Name: Madelyn Payne
Home in 1930: Augusta, Butler, Kansas
Age: 7
Estimated birth year: abt 1923
Relation to Head of House: Daughter
Father’s name: Rolla E
Mother’s name: Leona
Household Members: Name Age
Rolla E Payne 37
Leona Payne 32
Madelyn Payne 7
Charles Payne 5
Arlene Payne 3 8/12
May 28th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
There is a Charles T Payne in the pedigree, b. 1861, Missouri. The father of Rolla, greatgrandfather of Barack.
May 28th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Here is the Rootsweb Link and from that page you can go back to Searches and plug in any name you want.
May 28th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
A reader has forwarded this article about the latest great uncle, Jon Payne, from the Arizona Star, published just a couple of weeks ago:
Local relative backs Obama | http://www.azstarnet.com ®
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=.....3+%22jon+p
May 28th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
I’m fully subscribed on Ancestry.com. I just hopped on this thread so I’m going to have to do some catching up.
May 28th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
Speaking of Ancestry.com, isn’t it weird that Mr. Obama never mentioned his great uncle to them?
Military Collections - Ancestry.com
http://landing.ancestry.com/mi.....html=obama
May 28th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
It is Charles W. according to public records. I even have his phone number.
May 28th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
Call him up and ask then nuthing! ;-)
May 28th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
Could this be the same Mark Kitchell?
http://www.greencine.com/artic.....ticleID=63
http://www.amazon.ca/Berkeley_.....B00006JMQC
[Please note: I have been emailed by Mr. Mark Kitchell, who says that he is not this Mark Kitchell. --SG]
May 28th, 2008 at 6:54 pm
Confirms??
hello all
It seems clear that the familytrees say this man is Charles W.
and NOT Charles T.
the “Payne” listed in the 89th is clearly C. T. Payne
The site owners claim that their particular knowledge of the ‘list’ is that they retrieved it from a book- and not that they knew Charles.
The site owners are asssuming that a listed C. T. is a Charles, number one- (just as I did) and, two, that the T. is Obama’s uncles middle initial. Therefore, they say, he was there.
It is also clear that any search of various records sites do not produce a Charles W from Kansas except for one being in the Navy.
[there was a Charles W Payne on the "Hornet" but I can't say it's him ]
Also the searches produce plenty of Charles W’s but NONE in the “Army” from Kansas.
There are also NO Army Charlie T’s from Kansas either in search lists, who could be the CT in the 89th list.
Also somewhere here I read that Ralf Dunham was in the 89th? He’s not on their list either.
Seems like until we get a definite Middle name or initial - a birthday - or a search site that excepts that Navy serial number, this one is gona be up and down…as far as pinning a definitive tail on that Donkey.
May 28th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
Here’s some interesting posts about it….
http://boards.historychannel.c.....=510002550
May 28th, 2008 at 7:43 pm
Thanks, NBTD.
One of the last posts is of the obit for the Charles W. Payne that some have mentioned, who was in the Navy.
So that has been put to bed.
I have been forwarded the address and phone number of Charles T. Payne in Chicago. And so such a person does exist.
Though, as the History Channel comments also point out, even if he was in the 89th he did not liberate Buchenwald. That was done by units of the 6th Armored and 83rd Infantry Divisions.
http://tinyurl.com/5dgbbx
But that is close enough for Mr. Obama, one supposes.
Still, Mr. Payne may have been present at the liberation of Ohrdruf. Which, it should be remembered, was a work camp — and not a death camp like Auschwitz or Treblinka.
May 28th, 2008 at 7:53 pm
Since Ralph W.E. Dunham’s induction record does exist and he is another great uncle, has anyone with access checked the name that shares his number, Lawrence W. Solomon?
Dunham, Ralph E. Inducted 28 May 1942, Army 37203549 Registered, order # 1180 Mound City, Linn Co. (Board # 1) Serial # also assigned to Lawrence W. Solomon
I’m not going to say this doesn’t happen, but I’ve researched alot of old war records going back to the Rev. War, and I’ve never seen a shared serial number before. Also, my husband was career Navy, 26 years and I can’t imagine the mess if somehow two people ended up with the same number.
I’m more inclined to this great uncle because he was inducted within a couple of weeks of his brother, who was Barack’s grandfather, Stanley A. Dunham, who served with Patton and could have been at Ohrdruf with Patton’s army and could have taken pictures.
What documentation, other than the Obama campaign, do we have that Charles Payne is, in fact, the uncle in question? Surely Obama knows some living relative he could call to verify his childhood memory is correct? Has there ever been a soldier or sailor who didn’t have his picture taken in uniform before going off to war?
I’m not doubting that some relative of Obama’s did serve in WWII and this story may be entirely true and, I honor that service, but goodness, why so secretive as to the details? It just does not make sense unless the discharge was a dishonorable or maybe a Section 8 for mental problems.
May 28th, 2008 at 8:07 pm
I’ve been searching Kansas Obituaries for 4 hours trying to connect to sister in the obit texts.
thank goodness i can drop that one.
May 28th, 2008 at 8:54 pm
P2P, we have the Obama camp and even his other great uncle Jon on record saying it was Charles. So I think you are barking up the wrong tree.
May 28th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
I read the Arizona article about Jon, but I don’t recall seeing any confirmation about the uncle who liberated a camp. Where is that?
May 28th, 2008 at 9:08 pm
dang it
I knew that Kansas City Star was one I’d looked at this morning.
I can’t figure out how ( maybe some other paid news archive?) that the guy at historychannal got into the obits for year 2000.
The Obit only goes back one year, and archive org is missing the month of july 2000…(I’m not sayin its a fake obit - I just can’t figure how it was produced - sigh - I’m getting too old :) )
May 28th, 2008 at 9:18 pm
The Kansas State Historical Society’s WWII Kansas Veterans Index lists a Charles E. Payne, Inducted (not enlisted) June 9, 1943, into the Army, at Augusta, Butler County, Kansas.
The Payne family, including a 5-year-old Charles (no middle initial), is listed on the 1930 US Census living in Augusta, Butler County, Kansas.
Lacking any other source documents, I would say this is Madelyn Payne’s brother. That record wouldn’t appear at Ancestry.com, because their WWII database is limited to enlistees, and doesn’t include inductees.
As far as the middle initial goes, I’ve done quite a bit of genealogy research, and it’s not unusual for a middle initial to appear differently on various records, due to transcription errors, etc. When it comes to IGI records, as someone referenced above, or One World Tree, World Family Tree or individual family tree records, all of these are notoriously error-prone, because they are simply submissions by various, and frequently anonymous, individuals, and the data is usually not sourced or checked for accuracy.
That said, unless the 89th Division, or someone else, can come up with something more definitive than an assertion referencing a “C. T. Payne” serving in that Division, without any documentary evidence — or even a first name — there still is no actual proof that that person is Obama’s great-uncle.
As far as the interview with Obama’s great-uncle, Jon Payne, in the Arizona Star, linked above, I have to chuckle at the fortuitous way that people from Obama’s past just happen to pop up out of nowhere to confirm the murky details of his pseudo-memoir. Jon’s story tracks a bit too closely, though, since the other characters who’ve emerged from his past seem to at least offer some minor contradiction or embellishment on Obama’s scanty, and IMO, purposely obscured personal history. The only detail I haven’t seen before is the “family celebration” in Chicago in ‘2000 — maybe a meet-up to pass out copies of his book, “Dreams,” for all his Kansas relatives to get up to speed on the official narrative?
May 28th, 2008 at 9:28 pm
Well just to throw a little more fuel on the fire, Is it possible the uncle went by his middle name?
My boss does, His name is Johnathon Michael, and everyone calls him “Mike”.
AND there is a W. C. Payne listed on the Kitchell website. Perhaps somewhere along the way the initials got switched?
May 28th, 2008 at 9:38 pm
yep- that middle initial sure is a much needed key-
JBean: The Kansas State Historical Society’s WWII Kansas Veterans Index lists a Charles E. Payne, Inducted (not enlisted) June 9, 1943, into the Army, at Augusta, Butler County, Kansas.
The Payne family, including a 5-year-old Charles (no middle initial), is listed on the 1930 US Census living in Augusta, Butler County, Kansas
Now that would make sense!
However I just checked the list:
and there isn’t any C. E. Payne on it.
:(
It sure will suck if it all comes down to a middle initial ‘error’.
This one is tougher than Obama’s folks being in Hawaii, but he was somehow concieved in Selma…
May 28th, 2008 at 9:47 pm
If I recall correctly, Obama’s uncle made a career out of the Army. I remember a few years back watching a documentary on him.
It was called “Major Payne” and one of the Wayan’s brothers played him.
May 28th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
PoonzillaOne, didn’t the Obama campaign say that Obama was talking about Uncle “Charlie”? That would mean that he used his first name.
Here is what I think happened:
Obama was obviously choosing his words carefully, thinking in advance what he was going to say, pausing and stuttering as he went along. I would warrent he took a couple of stories and combined them, looking for credibility on the day that we honor our military fallen. So his grandfather was in the Army, supposedly with Patton, and he used the “Auschwitz” story to say “See how patriotism is in my family? ”
While Obama refuses to go into his associations with Rev. Wright, William Ayers and Bernadette Dohrn, Tony Rezko and Rashid Khalidi (yes, he was asked about Khalidi at a primarily Jewish gathering in Florida) he gives us the excuse that it is not right to place “guilt by association” on him because (as he said about Khalidi) of ONE person. Yet, Obama is trying to be found “patriotic by association” by mentioning his uncle who liberated the prisoners in a Nazi camp. You will notice he is been seen wearing his flag lapel pin lately.
For a year, we have watched as Obama gave perfect speech after perfect speech. Yet six months ago, I read an article by a liberal reporter who said that Obama’s speech was perfect, but when he started the Q & A, without a prepared speech and a teleprompter, he was awful. Now we are seeing Obama make gaffe after gaffe (Souix City instead of Souix Falls, 57 states, Sunshine instead of Sunrise, etc.) because he is speaking off the cuff since he has been accused of not being able to handle himself without the good old reliable teleprompter. Everytime he debated Hillary, reporters who were honest (do they still exist?) remarked on how badly he comes off when is not speaking from a prepared speech. Because of that, Obama has been speaking more off the cuff and making more and more mistakes.
But now that he is the “presumptive” Democratic candidate, he is about to catch hell from McCain who will be his nemisis. McCain is seasoned, experienced, and he can handle himself when pressed with hard questions. He is not going to let Obama get by with spewing his “hope and change” rhetoric without substance. Case in point: McCain has thrown down the gauntlet by saying that Obama should go to Iraq with him. So what does Obama do? Does he continue to speak about Iraq and refuse to go there and learn the facts on the ground from those who are walking the walk? That will make him look like he is afraid to go to Iraq. Or does he go, and then, when he is told, in person, how things are improving in Iraq, can he come back and say “the war is lost. We must pull out immediately.”?
Fasten your seat belt, the ride is going to get rough. So get ready to start holding Obama responsible for every dimwitted claim he makes. He’s human, not a god, and he is going to continue to mess up as the pressure is brought on.
May 28th, 2008 at 10:33 pm
Domain Name:89INFDIVWW2.ORG
Registrant Name:Mark Kitchell
Registrant Street1:1742 U Street NW Apt 101
Registrant City:Washington DC
Registrant State/Province:DC
Registrant Postal Code:20009
Registrant Country:US
Registrant Phone:+1.2028414075
Registrant Email:markkitchell@yahoo.com
This Mark Kitchell?
http://berkeleypeace.blogspot......chell.html
May 28th, 2008 at 10:58 pm
retire05,
Peace brother, I’m on your side.
I just threw that out there in the interest of fairness.
I wanna see Obama called on this crap too but we gotta be sure.
It wouldn’t look good if we were wrong just because we didn’t
explore every possibility.
May 28th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
So I’ve been digging around, and I’ll post what I’ve got.
It appears mostly confirmatory, but there are some loose ends that don’t match.
According to CNN, Charles Payne is 83 and living in Chicago. This is based on an interview with Jon Payne, a younger brother.
http://cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/2.....e-mistake/
There are two separate Intelius listings for a Charles Payne, age 83, in Chicago. One is Charles T. Payne and the other is Charles E. Payne.
http://www.intelius.com/
Furthermore, Charles T. Payne of Chicago is listed as having contributed the maximum amount to the Obama Presidential campaign, and made numerous large political contributions to Obama prior to the current Presidential campaign.
http://www.newsmeat.com/fec/by.....st=Charles
Finally, there is the listing for a C. T. Payne on the roster for the 89th.
http://89infdivww2.org/home/list_p.htm
All of this, collectively, suggests that Obama’s great uncle did serve in the 89th (and that there was a likely transcription error in the genealogical sources that listed the middle initial as W).
There still are a couple of things, however, that don’t match.
There are many veterans with the appropriate surname and initials (C. T. Payne) on the WW II enlistment rolls.
In addition, there are no listings for a Charles T. Payne from Kansas in the World War II Army Enlistment Records Database.
http://aad.archives.gov/aad/di.....txt_24983=
However, there are known gaps in this database.
There is one listing for a Charles T. Payne in the World War II Kansas Veterans Index.
Payne, Charles T. Enlisted 13 December 1942, Navy 3427439 Unregistered Kansas City, Wyandotte Co. (Board # 4)
http://www.kshs.org/genealogis.....mit=SEARCH
However, the listing for Charles T. Payne of Kansas specifies Navy, which seems incompatible with being in the 89th Infantry.
There’s also a listing for Charles E. Payne of Kansas which specifies Army.
Payne, Charles E.Inducted 9 June 1943, Army37531353 Registered, order # V11125Augusta, Butler Co. (Board # 2)
And he was from Augusta, which matches where the family was living in the 1930 census listing.
http://www.wargs.com/political/obama.html
But the roster for the 89th lists C. T. Payne (not C. E. Payne).
In addition, the World War II Kansas Veterans Index should be comprehensive, since the information comes from the Adjutant General Selective Service Board lists (so it apparently wouldn’t have been compromised by the 1973 archives fire). So it’s a bit odd that there isn’t an appropriate listing.
May 28th, 2008 at 11:27 pm
“he is listed as Charles W. Payne”
Must be where the nick name “Rolling W” came from.
I just came back from a Toastmasters meeting, I won best Table Topics. U NO HOO for Obama’s running mate!
(HHHH)
PS, We ran out of time, I was the only “contestant.”
Has anyone had the energy to search the morgue of Kansas newspapers, probably there was local news when men shipped out.
I am not trying to nail Obama on this, there are family stories in my family, such as the uncle who died because he ate “??????????” brand bread. But when I tell it I preface it and epilogue it as a “story” I heard and certainly can’t verify but it is something to talk about in the bread aisle at the grocery store.
May 29th, 2008 at 12:02 am
JacksonianDemocrat: Excellent analysis and source citation.
On the matter of the military service of Charlie Payne, the great-uncle of Barack Obama:
His full name is Charles Thomas Payne and he IS the uncle (the term “uncle” has in fact been used even for great-uncles in that family) who served in the Army in the 89th Infantry during WW II and suffered severe enough PTSD that, after coming back from the war, he isolated himself at home for some time.
Charles recovered, attended college and to this day is an active, mentally vital, 83 year-old resident of Chicago.
This information was obtained tonight from a phone conversation with members of the Payne family and is being posted to correct the mis-information that is swirling around the internet.
CORRECT info:
1. Charles’ middle initial is “T”, not “W”;
2. he did have what is now termed PTSD; and
3. he was so traumatized by what he encountered during the war, that he in fact did isolate himself at home for a lengthy period of time.
Charles is the second of FOUR Payne siblings:
1. Madelyn Lee
2. Charles Thomas
3. Margaret Arlene
4. Jon Virgil, (born 1937, which is why there is no listing for him in the 1930 Census of Augusta City, Butler County, Kansas. This census has been the only source offered for “Payne sibling info” oin all of the genealogical sites cited by those interested in this story.
I suspect that the listing for Charles E. Payne of Kansas is in fact the record for Charles Thomas Payne. I believe the scribe probably heard “E” instead of “T.” That type of error is frequent in census records and in military records where the info is provided orally:
Payne, Charles E. Inducted 9 June 1943, Army 37531353 Registered, order # V11125 Augusta, Butler Co. (Board # 2)
http://www.kshs.org/genealogis.....mit=SEARCH
J Straight
May 29th, 2008 at 2:56 am
J Straight: I’m new here so forgive me, did you make the calls and talk to the family? If not, is this info posted somewhere?
Also, the last line in your comment you speculate that the Charles E Payne at the link is probably his great uncle he referred to, however
that shows he was inducted, and if I am not mistaken Obama states that his “uncle” signed up the day after Pearl Harbor. (volunteered)
May 29th, 2008 at 3:17 am
dualdiagnosis — his mother was an only child and his grandmother turned 23 in 1945 — he’s referred to his great uncles’ service in WWII multiple times simply as “my uncle” — he has two who served (afaik).
SG: 1) nothing in Hitler’s Europe was “just a work camp”. Ike cabled this to Marshall (cite: wikipedia…) after visiting the camp in question:
May 29th, 2008 at 8:28 am
dualdiagnosis: Yes, I made the call.
On his website, Obama states that it was his grandfather who “signed up” the day after Pearl Harbor. So, it is still possible that the record for the Charles E. Payne who was drafted into the Army, actually belongs to Charles T. Payne.
There is a record for a Stanley A. Dunham who enlisted on 18 June 1942. If this record is for Obama’s grandfather (haven’t had time to finish researching this), there are some who say that Obama’s “day after Pearl Harbor” sign up story can’t be correct due to the six months time difference. In fact there may be no conflict here, because “signing-up” and “enlisting” are two separate and consecutive events. The date a civilian applys or “signs-up” to be a recruit and the date that civilian actually “enlists” as a new recruit can be far apart. But is six months apart possible?
If the story IS correct, and that record does belong to Obama’s grandfather, what could account for the six months difference? I don’t know what the Army’s enlistment procedures were at that time, so this next bit is pure supposition on my part. Perhaps there was a stampede of young men who eagerly signed up to enlist in the days and weeks following the attack on Pearl Harbor and this six months represents the lag time that it took for the military to gear-up and process that huge backlog. In addition, what if the enlistment process worked back then, like it did for me. If so, Obama’s grandfather’s “signing up” date and “enlistment” date were probably many months apart.
I am an Army Vet. I “signed up” at the recruiter’s office in Aug of yyyy, by filling out personal info forms and forms authorizing the army to conduct a background check on me. That took at least six weeks or so. After approval, I then had to schedule a physical exam at the army base. It was about the beginning of Oct, yyyy, by the time that took place. The next step was scheduling a date to take the Army’s aptitude and foreign language tests. It was the end of Oct, yyyy, by the time the Army gave those exams. It was only after passing those exams that I signed a preliminary enlistment contract (still a potential backout possibility) and was given an enlistment date of Feb, dd, yyy(y+1). Enlistment day was when I actually took the oath and signed the binding enlistment contract. All told, it was about a 5 1/2 month process from “sign up” to “enlistment”.
I suspect some of these steps were compressed, combined or eliminated during WW II, though. Also, one caveat–I am a female. Perhaps a lower demand for females in the Army had an influence on the length of time between my sign-up and enlistment dates. Does anyone here know what the sign-up/enlistment process really was like back then?
May 29th, 2008 at 9:24 am
J. Straight, I can only relate what family members said; that when you enlisted right after Pearl Harbor it was a very short time before you were sworn in and ususally you left for basic or boot the same day you were sworn in. The U.S. was trying to build an army as fast as it could. Camps were being build as fast as carpenters could hammer a nail and living in tents were common as the mess halls and other buildings went up first. I don’t think there would be a six month delay between Gramps enlistment and his leaving for basic training in 1942.
May 29th, 2008 at 9:31 am
Just one thing.. to whoever questioned why Obama’s great-uncle would be so ‘terribly traumatized’ by merely a ‘work’ camp, perhaps this is why?
http://www.trumanlibrary.org/p.....inter=3907
May 29th, 2008 at 9:35 am
“what the sign-up/enlistment process really was like back then?”
My father told me he had flat 4F feet on Dec 6, 1941 and perfect arches on Dec 8, 1941. Somewhat facetious but I hope you get his and my point. Men enlisted on Dec 8, 1941 but certainly did not ship out on Dec 8, or 9, or 10…1941. Likely the nation was pondering the situation such as we did on 9/12/01.
T sounds like E and E is next to W on a keyboard.
J Straight and others, thank you for serving.
PS, I called my father’s aunts and uncles aunt and uncle, never great or grand aunt or uncle. Just seeking the truth. They were great and they were grand and I miss them still.
May 29th, 2008 at 10:10 am
As I noted on the previous thread on this topic, according to the National Archives enlistment records Obama’s grandfather Stanley Dunham signed up on January 18, 1942:
http://tinyurl.com/5kftsn
The Kansas records might be wrong. As might the NARA’s.
For instance, the serial number given for Charles E. that was noted above returns no records from the NARA.
May 29th, 2008 at 10:35 am
“SG: 1) nothing in Hitler’s Europe was “just a work camp”.”
I am a student of World War II, which is why I noticed the Obama gaffe about having an uncle who liberated Auschwitz back when everyone else was chortling over his “seeing dead people.”
I did not mean to diminish the suffering endured by those at camp Ohrdruf. Far from it. But there was a tremendous difference between the treatment of prisoners in work camps versus those in death camps.
The bodies found at Ohrdruf, which the survivors said numbered around 3,000, mostly died from a combination of disease, overwork and starvation. Though of course the Germans executed a number of prisoners for various reasons.
The prisoners at Auschwitz were there to be killed. And the final death toll numbered anywhere from 1.5 to 5 million.
My point is really that it is quite a difference in scale and purpose. And for Mr. Obama to treat them as interchangeable is a bit of a scandal in itself.
May 30th, 2008 at 1:30 am
My father signed up, along with a bunch of his college classmates, the day after Pearl Harbor. They were flooded with sign-ups, so they told him to go back to college and they’d call him up later. He finished his last semester and worked at Remington-Rand testing ammunition rounds while he waited. He then went in and served in the Pacific Theater. Anyone who thinks the armed forces were ready and able to immediately take in everyone who signed up the day after Pearl Harbor isn’t thinking straight.
May 30th, 2008 at 7:43 pm
But there was a tremendous difference between the treatment of prisoners in work camps versus those in death camps.
I am of German heritage (among other mogrol oakie mixtures) and I have to disagree with you - perhaps the first time.
There is little difference between inhuman treatment in a work camp, or a death camp. I would venture to say that while being starved and worked to death, and health run down to levels of being prone to disease and death - executed when no longer useful - that the body being used was no different to the German Administrator of the time than anyone put immediately to death. These people were there to be killed also. Just more slowly. Makes no difference if the camp was capable of murdering 3,000 or 1.5 million. Makes no difference if it was a slow death or a quick death. Little difference in tremendous suffering.
The lessor or greater numbers do not matter. Scale and purpose was the same if you were in any camp. imo.
May 30th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
“There is little difference between inhuman treatment in a work camp, or a death camp.”
GB, I would agree with you, insofar as being worked to death is just as horrible or even more so than being gassed or otherwise summarily executed. But there are real and significant differences between the two types of prison camps.
In a work camp the inmates were clothed, housed and fed (however poorly). Many people survived work camps. (Relatively speaking, of course.)
People were sent to death camps to be killed. And they were simply killed as quickly and effectively as possible.
There have been work camps, slave labor camps, throughout history. The Japanese operated slave labor camps during WWII. And of course Mr. Solzhenitsyn survived the work camps in the Gulag Archipeligo. We still have them today in China, Burma and surely elsewhere.
Of course the German camps, especially towards the end of the war, were as brutal as any in history. And certainly people were worked literally to death. But that was not the goal of these camps per se. (Though, this too changed as the end of the war approached.)
The extermination camps, which were created for the “Final Solution” near the end of the war are probably unique in history.
And of course as I have mentioned, the differences in the numbers of those who died in the camps is simply staggering.
This isn’t directed at you, GB, but in general it is insulting to the the victims in both kinds of camps to make a game out of arguing about these details.
This isn’t complicated. These are well-known historical facts.
Forced Labor: Overview
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/artic.....d=10005180
Killing Centers: Overview
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/artic.....d=10005145
May 30th, 2008 at 9:04 pm
For the record, I have been sent the following information purportedly about Mark Kitchell, who started and runs the 89th Infantry Division site:These are the kind of people who are questioning our patriotism for simply asking whether a site dedicated to the division in question had any record of Mr. Obama’s great uncle.
[Please note: I have been emailed by Mr. Mark Kitchell, who says that he is not this Mark Kitchell.
I apologize for the error.]
May 31st, 2008 at 1:51 pm
The ancestory site we originally used has been edited -
http://genealogy.about.com/od/.....ma_two.htm
Now shows -
1. i. Madelyn PAYNE
ii. Charles Thomas PAYNE born in 1925.
iii. Arlene PAYNE born about 1926.
If you do a cache search you can see the original -
http://img.photobucket.com/alb.....matree.jpg
Kinda odd how they snuck that in with no notes of the change or anything, eh?