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AP: 67% Want Schools To Give Birth Control

Just in time to assuage concerns raised by a Maine public school giving out contraceptives to 11 year olds we have this non-biased report on a non-biased poll conducted by the professional propagandists at the Associated Press:

Poll: Most OK birth control for schools

By ALAN FRAM, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON - People decisively favor letting their public schools provide birth control to students, but they also voice misgivings that divide them along generational, income and racial lines, a poll showed.
Sixty-seven percent support giving contraceptives to students, according to an Associated Press-Ipsos poll. About as many — 62 percent — said they believe providing birth control reduces the number of teenage pregnancies…
Yet most who support schools distributing contraceptives prefer that they go to children whose parents have consented. People are also closely divided over whether sex education and birth control are more effective than stressing morality and abstinence, and whether giving contraceptives to teenagers encourages them to have sexual intercourse…
The 67 percent in the AP poll who favor providing birth control to students include 37 percent who would limit it to those whose parents have consented, and 30 percent to all who ask.
Minorities, older and lower-earning people were likeliest to prefer requiring parental consent, while those favoring no restriction tended to be younger and from cities or suburbs. People who wanted schools to provide no birth control at all were likelier to be white and higher-income earners…
Underlining the schisms over the issue, those saying sex education and birth control were better for reducing teen pregnancies outnumber people preferring morality and abstinence by a slim 51 percent to 46 percent.
Younger people were likelier to consider sex education and birth control the better way to limit teenage pregnancies, as were 64 percent of minorities and 47 percent of whites. Nearly seven in 10 white evangelicals opted for abstinence, along with about half of Catholics and Protestants.
In addition, 49 percent say providing teens with birth control would not encourage sexual intercourse and a virtually identical 46 percent said it would…
Asked when young people should first be allowed to get birth control, ages 16 and 18 drew the most responses, while only a third chose age 15 or younger…
Mirroring the rift that has played out in countless battles in Congress, Democrats were likelier than Republicans to favor freer access to birth control and to have more faith that it reduces teenage pregnancies. Forty-five percent of Republicans — including 51 percent of GOP women — say birth control should not be provided to any students, compared to 19 percent of Democrats.
The poll involved telephone interviews with 1,004 adults from Oct. 23-25. It had a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3.1 percentage points…

What a typical piece of carefully crafted mendacity from the Associated Press.

The entire article and the poll itself were obviously geared towards producing the headline and lede that the AP wanted to foist on the great unwashed.

Sure, they eventually get around to the details. But who reads the details about polls?

Sixty-seven percent support giving contraceptives to students, according to an Associated Press-Ipsos poll.

Here is polling question upon which this grandiose claim rests:

Enlarge

Is that how you read the results? That 67% support giving contraceptives to students?

Doesn’t this mean that only 30% approve of doing so, unless the school has the consent of the parents?

And speaking of parents, most of the respondents aren’t:

Enlarge

Lastly, but not leastly, regular readers should not be surprised to hear that in its patented fashion this AP/Ipsos poll oversampled Democrats by 13% — just as they always do:

Enlarge

Gee, I wonder why they always do that?

People who wanted schools to provide no birth control at all were likelier to be white and higher-income earners.

Say no more.

By the way, aren’t public schools prohibited from passing out aspirin?

Related Articles:

This article was posted by Steve Gilbert on Thursday, November 1st, 2007 at 10:18 am. You can leave a response.

53 Responses to “AP: 67% Want Schools To Give Birth Control”

rhahn
November 1st, 2007 at 12:33 pm
Given that the majority who said “support” want parental notification tells me that they are simply looking for a handout instead of having to pay for the drugs themselves. Never disregard the “What’s in it for me” factor.
mergatroidal
November 1st, 2007 at 12:35 pm
There’s no grand, ideal direction, purpose, or meaning in life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BppL2nyOrLc

Sad.
EvaTheFrisbeeDog
November 1st, 2007 at 1:06 pm
Great points SG. This is poll is garbage. The headline should read “Very few parents thinks schools should provide BC to all kids who want it.” Assuming equal distribution of responses, which I think is highly unlikely, only 11% of parents of school-aged kids believe that kids should get birth control on demand. However, the same number of respondents (37%) have school-age children and want parental notification. Interesting. Could these be one and the same? Never mind, this is part of the liberal agenda to include schools in their socialized health care system. They’re half way there.
Warmonger Infidel
November 1st, 2007 at 1:57 pm
Here’s the result of my personal poll, which I know is correct. When my kids were in school, if anyone had given them birth control devices of any kind, or arranged for an abortion for one of my girls without my knowledge, my poll is 100% accurate that upon finding out, that person would have been in the hospital or worse. Now I may not have been here to post now, but my poll would still be 100% accurate. Fortunately, we didn’t have those issues. So far so good with the grandkids also. 2 graduated HS so far, another (beautiful young lady) this year and off to Cal State Monterey Bay, several more to follow. The same poll results apply.
wardmama4
November 1st, 2007 at 5:13 pm
SG - the article I saw did not have those telling - parents/no parent or political affiliation - would have made the whole thing much, much clearer.

Goes to what I say about the Bush bashing - if you begin with a premise that is a lie - aren’t you going to end up with a lie at the end?

It would be nice if I could vote in some of these polls - but then they don’t want me to - it would ruin their nice template too much.
DEZ
November 1st, 2007 at 7:26 pm
Libtard math 101.

How to cook the polls.
a) Ask a loaded question.
Example, Would you like a 50 inch plasma Hi def television to be distributed with your 10 year olds birth control?
b) If you dont like the numbers you get even while asking misleading questions, Just move the decimal points around, Example, 67 percent becomes 6.7 percent or vice versa.
c) If you are caught using the floating decimal, simply call it a typo.
d) Keep having polls untill you get the numbers you want by asking even more obscure questions.
e) Just f***in make the s**t up, Its BS any way and 82 percent of the population knows it.
Musette
November 1st, 2007 at 9:57 pm
Wardmama, I find that the more you participate in polls, the more you get called. I also answer short online polls, and am often emailed with them. I have participated in polls on all kinds of propositions (before they get put on the ballot) in California, which I appreciate mucho. If you think about it, you often get more of a say that way than in the actual vote.

Just don’t allow them to catch you with forced choices on “Have you stopped beating your wife” questions. If you say “neither” and make a comment, they pretty much always record it.
WickedWolf
November 2nd, 2007 at 2:35 am
Steve, speaking of the wonderful services provided by our nation’s educators, I wondered if you had seen the following at the University of Delaware:
http://www.thefire.org/index.php/article/8555.html
http://www.thefire.org/pdfs/73.....832ce9.pdf

As usual, such neomarxist programs can’t tolerate the light of truth:
http://www.thefire.org/index.php/article/8585.html
AmericanIPA
November 2nd, 2007 at 8:12 am
What percentage actually want the schools to concentrate on giving students an education rather than rubbers and pills? Say public schools are all about what’s best for the children all day long, but it’s painfully obvious that children are the last concern for supporters of the failing government school system.

Ever notice how the responsibility is NEVER left to the partents? But the politicians do know more about our children and our lives as a whole than we do, don’t they?
amber
November 2nd, 2007 at 11:05 am
I want to know what percentage of drug companies and OBGYNs think this is a good idea. I gather the drug companies would say this is not good either because they have never tested the effects of birth control on adolecents and are unprepared for the lawsuits that would be forthcomming. I can not even begin to imagine the health implications this has for children whose hormones are beginning to be active; to introduce other hormones in their system is irresponsible.
I never took birth control. I knew too many women who took it for more than 6 years and were either FAT or could not get pregnant without miscarying before the second trimester.
I think the safer soluting is to have all of the boys in school fitted with a VAS clip, they are 99% effective and can be removed with no complications. I wonder why NOW is not suggesting this as an option. After all, why is birth control the pre-pubescent girls responsibility? Of course I am being sarcastic.
Maybe the real goal is to steralize the population.
Helena
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:21 pm
Schools are prevented from giving out aspirin to students without parental consent, but powerful hormone-inhibitors are all right. That makes sense.
Warmonger Infidel
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:36 pm
Excellent points Amber and Helena….and now that the Portland ME morons have decided to go forward with this, as other cities apparently already have, how do they get the BP pills to give to the students? Is it directly from the drug companies, from a local pharmacy or directly from the school districts doctor/nurse practitioner? In any of these cases, it would seem that the financial exposure it enormous. Not only from a law suit brought because a student may get sick or have problems soon after taking the pills, but what about years later when the student is an adult and can positively trace health problems encountered in later life to the administration of the pills? So forgetting for a moment about the morality of usurping parental rights in these matters, it just fiscally irresponsible for any school to undertake a program like this. What the hell are these people thinking?
WickedWolf
November 2nd, 2007 at 1:32 pm
WI — They aren’t thinking, they’re emoting — in typical lib fashion. As the sample data shows, there is a preponderance of non-parent Democrats, and still only 30% advocated blindly handing out the pill. As we have seen, the facts don’t matter. All that matters is advancing the story line.
wardmama4
November 2nd, 2007 at 4:39 pm
Wow you guys got me thinking - how about STDs - the pills don’t do anything about that? And how about the fact that a MD is (supposedly) required to dispense the pill - and I don’t know a school - most especially a public school that has a MD in residence.

And I agree - since schools in America are sinking fast as far as passing any kind of educational standard - not to mention rising dropout rate - wouldn’t or shouldn’t education be the key element of schools?

Plus the thing about the pill dispensing - because of the utter (bureacratic) insane method of pill dispensing (and the paperwork) - we actually had the dr change the script to do AM, dinner and bedtime rather than lunch - to avoid the real hassle of dealing with school pill dispensing. And yes, they are utterly idiotic about asprin (OTC)- but somehow find dispensing bc (prescription) - OK.

And yes, it is just another way - like enforced pre-school, sex ed curriculum and college for all - to take any and all parental rights, control and values away and hand them to the government (i.e. liberals).
Warmonger Infidel
November 2nd, 2007 at 6:23 pm
WM….in most states a PA or Nurse Practitioner can prescribe birth control drugs.

Wicked….of course they are emoting. That’s what libs do. They are incapable of pragmatism or critical thinking. Unfortunately, that 30% you’re citing and the preponderance of non-parent dhimmis are the ones, in many cases, running the schools and school boards. They are the liberal college grads who can’t do anything to actually contribute to the economy, so after their compulsory trip, trekking to Europe or Asia after graduation, they go back to school for their teaching certificate, become entrenched in the education system, and decide how the parents of today, most of whom are too busy trying to make a living and enough money to appropriately spoil the little brats they have brought into the world to pay attention to what their kids are learning or are being taught, should raise their children. Whew…..pardon the long, rambling sentence but I was on a brain roll. You get the idea.
mercurialohearn
November 3rd, 2007 at 4:12 am
what about this poll is rigged? the headline reads:

“AP/Ipsos Poll: Most In AP Poll Favor Public Schools Providing Birth Control, Though Qualms Remain”

37% support handing out contraception, with parental approval
30% support handing out contraception, with or without parental approval

30 + 37 = 67

67% of people polled support handing out contraception. some want parental approval, others don’t care. but the number is still 67%. hence “qualms remain.”

this does not mean, as sweetness and light would have you believe, that most people don’t support handing out contraception in public schools.

also, re: the claim that most respondents weren’t parents . . .

most respondents weren’t parents of a SCHOOL-AGED CHILD.

do they really think that out of a RANDOM sampling of over 1000 people, that *most* of those people wouldn’t have had children?

the probability that that sample includes people whose children are grown, and people whose children aren’t old enough to go to school yet approaches 100%. a better way to have asked the question would’ve been to break it up into two questions:

are you a parent?

how old is your child?

sweetness and light is leading you to believe (as most of the comments in this thread suggest) that the AP poll somehow managed to reach primarily childless adults. they have no information on which to base that claim, other than this poll; however, it is in their ideological interests to omit this very obvious ambiguity because it makes their case seem stronger.

who’s distorting these poll results, again?

by the way, i would support handing out birth control to teenagers, as long as their parents are aware that they are receiving it and that they approve. so i fall into that 30% category. and i am a childless adult. fyi.
justrichard
November 3rd, 2007 at 6:31 am
So the opinion of people whose children aren’t affected by this decision should be given the same weight as people whose children are being affected by it right now ? I mean, people with barely any parenting experience and parents whose children have already finished school should get an opinion equal to the parents whose children will be directly affected ? Isn’t that the same as the liberal whine about “why don’t the warmongers send THEIR OWN children to war if they believe in it so much” ? Ya’ know, a chickenhawk thing. Put YOUR kids up first ! Leave my kids alone !
Christineeve
November 3rd, 2007 at 9:04 am
I’m a reader of S&L. I love it. I’ve never posted here before though. This subject prompted me to post.

When I think of liberals trying to “help” society raise their kids “right,” I remember a younger and wiser me.

As an expert on raising children, I was there to help my friends raise theirs. They had their children in their 20s, and I felt it was my duty to help. I guided them with my wisdom. I let them know how they were right and how they were wrong. I jumped to share what I thought they should do about the various problems that cropped up. I knew *exactly* what they should be doing, and at every occasion, I made sure I told them.

Then at 36, I had my first child. It didn’t take long for me to remember all the wisdom I *liberally* imparted throughout those years. It took even less time to realize that I didn’t know a damn thing.

So, dear liberals, if you’ve not gone through the trouble of raising a child, I’d thank you not to tell me whom can medicate her. That should be my decision until she’s of legal age.
mercurialohearn
November 3rd, 2007 at 9:23 am
justrichard:

are laws and policies written for people “right now”?

do parents suddenly lose their ability to know what’s best for their children when those children graduate high school?

and parents whose children are only 3 or 4 years old aren’t allowed to have an opinion about the kind of life their children will have once they reach school age?

someone who has children, whether they are older children or younger, has gone through or will go through the experience of parents whose children are in high school, and their opinion should be taken into consideration.

i don’t even understand the relevance of your “chickenhawk” comment, and i certainly don’t see how it’s “the same” type of argument, especially considering that soldiers who go to fight in wars for this country are at least 18 years old and are therefore adults, theoretically capable of making decisions independently from their parents. “chickenhawks” are people who support war, who ascribe the bravery of soldiers at war to themselves, without ever having gone to war in the first place.

christineeve:

i certainly wouldn’t support anyone medicating anyone else’s child without parental approval, which is why i disclosed my own position on the issue. it’s unfortunate that you considered yourself an expert on raising children when you hadn’t had one of your own. i haven’t dared to be so presumptuous with my friends and relatives. :-)
Gila Monster
November 3rd, 2007 at 10:32 am
Mercurialohearn states;

“who’s distorting these poll results, again?”

Actually mercurialohearn, I believe you are distorting the results, much the same as the AP is distorting the poll as well.
What makes you believe the poll is random? Does Ipsos make that claim? No they do not and if you would have reviewed the poll and it’s demographics, you might have surmised that point.

Since the poll is in no way “random”, and if you really wanted an accurate reflection of how “parents” feel about public schools giving children contraceptives, why not restrict your poll to parents of school aged children only? But that makes too much sense now, does it not?
Warmonger Infidel
November 3rd, 2007 at 11:48 am
One can spin the numbers associated with this poll any number of ways. But one thing is constant regardless of how it is spun. Schools should not be in the business of birth control. Schools should not be doing anything with our children’s body or mind that the parent isn’t aware of. Schools should not be experimental labs in secretive social engineering.

And yes, mercurialohearn, I have a real problem with people who don’t have a dog in the hunt deciding what’s best morally or socially for my kids, or now in my stage of life, grandkids.
DEZ
November 3rd, 2007 at 1:30 pm
mercurialohearn seems to be upset that we, God forbid, Question a poll.
Must have came out the way the troll wanted huh.
mercurialohearn , I do think your mom should have been given birth control.
wardmama4
November 3rd, 2007 at 1:55 pm
mercurualohearn - 67% believe a lie - so what - if you start with a lie - that providing bc to children solves any problem whatsoever - you still end up with a lie. And yes only asking certain segments (or a higher proportion of certain segments) does skew the results which is exactly what AP wanted to accomplish and exactly what we were commenting on.
sheehanjihad
November 3rd, 2007 at 2:57 pm
DEZ !!!! You madcap you! LMAO~! Polls are useless. If you are a parent, and object to your child being given access to birth control….all you have to do is trot to the office…and give them a written warning that you will sue the entire school system if they continue.

I have seen so many cases of one person upset about something, so 300 million others have to change to suit them… because they threaten to sue. In today’s society, one person can change the lives of millions….with a good lawyer and the will to carry it out.

As a matter of fact….even if you dont have kids, but the idea offends you….sue them! That is being done daily by the ACLU and other institutions who make a living scamming the hell out of people….and there are plenty of activist judges who will take the case and rule in your favor, even if no law is being broken.

Use the lawsuit tactic to get your way,,,,just remember to word it so it cant be miscontrued as a conservative viewpoint….and the rest will be easy. Remember, you dont have to sue….just threaten to. Every school system that has been threatened by a lawsuit has caved…immediately. So it aint a big deal.

Oh, the other thing you can do is be a parent. Teach your child that boning Treavor because he drives a BMW isnt exactly the right thing to do, even if the teachers are doing it. Teach your children. It’s been done for centuries, and up to about thirty years ago before parenting was against the law….it worked.
1sttofight
November 3rd, 2007 at 3:07 pm
SJ,
You have a very good point.
Why can the ACLU not be sued for being assholes in every juristiction in the US?
Tie their asses up in court from now on…
DEZ
November 3rd, 2007 at 3:38 pm
I have gone from a daisy, to the madcap.
Now I must go put the movie Tombstone in and watch it again, LOL.
Warmonger Infidel
November 3rd, 2007 at 3:43 pm
DEZ…..Try the Wild Bunch instead. Much better acting and way more violent. My favorite western of all time. Maybe my favorite movie of all time actually.
DEZ
November 3rd, 2007 at 3:47 pm
I love the movie Tombstone, Doc Holiday used the term Madcap and Daisey in the film, SJ has called me both now, And it made me think of the movie.
Not sure if I remember ever seeing the wild bunch, But I will check it out on your recommendation.
Oh, Give me alil info about the movie, Plot, Actors. etc..
Never mind I looked it up, An oldie but looks like a goody.
Warmonger Infidel
November 3rd, 2007 at 4:02 pm
A Sam Peckinpah moving from 1969. How about a cast with William Holden, Ernest Borgnine, Robert Ryan, Edmund O’Brien, Warren Oates, Ben Johnson and Bo Hopkins to name a few. No stinkin liberal loons that wanted birth control in schools in that bunch! I’m telling you….it’s a great movie.
WickedWolf
November 16th, 2007 at 3:02 pm
mercurialohearn writes: “i don’t even understand the relevance of your “chickenhawk” comment, and i certainly don’t see how it’s “the same” type of argument, especially considering that soldiers who go to fight in wars for this country are at least 18 years old and are therefore adults, theoretically capable of making decisions independently from their parents.”

I wouldn’t really expect someone who blindly swallows poll findings to be intelligent enough to handle a simple analogy. But since I believe it is a duty to educate the ignorant, I will elucidate: chickenhawk is to the iraq war as *you* are to school-dispensed birth control pills. It’s very easy to support (or oppose) a public policy issue in which you have no personal stake. Realize however, that such a position makes you less credible. It doesn’t invalidate your opinion, but it certainly diminishes its significance and credibility in any debate with someone who does have a personal stake.

With regard to the chickehawk argument, which war opponents use to try to silence war supporters: Since we all live in America, we all have a stake in the success or failure of its foreign policy, and the consequences that result. To mentally-myopic libtards, the only consequence of war is soldiers dying, and they deny that the eventual end-state of war will have any effect on all Americans, whether their sons and daughters fought or not. It is a convenient ignorance of an inconvenient truth, made to score political points in the short term, but with no recognition of any longer term consequences. Liberals are largely the party of “right now” and “if it feels good, do it,” regardless of any consequences. Such short-sighted myopia will be the death of our society.

I have children. You admit that you do not, and yet you’re perfectly willing to allow a school to dispense a drug to my daughters that not only can play havoc with a developing endocrine system, but that also increases the taker’s lifetime risk of breast cancer, cervical cancer, high blood pressure and liver tumors, all for the short-term gain of preventing pregnancies; which only result because of the failure of (many) parents to inculcate morality, prudence, common sense, and good judgement in their children. This failure is aided and abbetted by a popular culture that through its entertainment media, tries to instill a hedonistic, instant-gratification, self-centered, personal responsibility-avoidance ethos. In short, liberalism/socialism.

I realize that you caveat your position by saying “with parental consent.” What a convenient cop-out for you. The schools have no business dispensing prescription medication that the parents have not provided specifically for their own child, period. Already children are allowed in some states to get an abortion without parental knowledge or consent. It’s a small step from there to schools handing out birth control without parental consent in the name of “confidentiality” and a supposed right to privacy on the part of a minor.

The school should be educating children in math, reading, objective history and the hard sciences, not participating in stealth social engineering projects.
mercurialohearn
March 20th, 2008 at 5:07 am
well, i returned to this forum after several months, to discover that my post prompted many people to respond. i have little hope that anyone who responded to those posts will read this now, though i suppose it is possible. but i would like to leave rebuttals to these comments for other users who may stumble across them, as an example, for the curious, of how people read only what they want to read, and how they classify the things that people say into fictitious categories based solely upon their own beliefs and prejudices.

Gila Monster wrote:

“What makes you believe the poll is random? Does Ipsos make that claim? No they do not and if you would have reviewed the poll and it’s demographics, you might have surmised that point.”

typically, telephone polls are conducted at random, and this one is no different. if YOU had actually reviewed the poll, you would’ve found the following: “The Associated Press-Ipsos poll on teens and birth control was conducted Oct. 23-25 based on telephone interviews with a nationally representative **random** sample of 1,004 adults from all states.” (emphasis mine)

Gila Monster continues:
“Since the poll is in no way ‘random’,”

yes it was.

“and if you really wanted an accurate reflection of how ‘parents’ feel about public schools giving children contraceptives,”

not really sure why you chose to put “parents” in quotes, here.

“why not restrict yourpoll to parents of school aged children only? But that makes too much sense now, does it not?”

actually, if you’d bothered to read my comments, you would’ve seen where i pointed out the shortcomings of this poll, and offered a solution very similar to the one you proposed.

next!

——————

Warmonger Infidel wrote:

“And yes, mercurialohearn, I have a real problem with people who don’t have a dog in the hunt deciding what’s best morally or socially for my kids, or now in my stage of life, grandkids.”

so you admit that you have grandkids, but that other people with grandkids, or new parents whose children are not yet old enough to go to school, or people like me, who may be thinking of having children and are concerned about the world into which these children might be born, do not have the “dog in the hunt” that you have with, uh, well, with your grandkids. aren’t your grandkids’ parents supposed to be the ones with the dog in the hunt, and not you? okay. your double standard is noted.

o wait! perhaps you meant me! i thought i’d made it clear that i have no interest in deciding what’s best for your grandkids. i merely support your adult child’s right to decide what’s best for his or her own children. perhaps it’s time to invest in a new pair of reading glasses?

next!

——————–

DEZ wrote:

“mercurialohearn seems to be upset that we, God forbid, Question a poll.
Must have came out the way the troll wanted huh.
mercurialohearn, I do think your mom should have been given birth control.”

trolls, DEZ, do not try to contribute anything to a discussion, but instead insult others with inane and deliberately inflammatory remarks like “your mom should’ve been given birth control.”

next!

———————

wardmama4 wrote:

“mercurualohearn - 67% believe a lie - so what - if you start with a lie - that providing bc to children solves any problem whatsoever - you still end up with a lie. And yes only asking certain segments (or a higher proportion of certain segments) does skew the results which is exactly what AP wanted to accomplish and exactly what we were commenting on.”

well, seeing as the problem is not “any problem whatsoever”, but teen pregnancy specifically, then the only way that distributing birth control to teens would not at least **reduce the incidence of teen pregnancy** is if teens received it but did not use it.

i do not imagine that giving teenagers contraception would solve the problem of illegal immigration. but then, i don’t think many other people think that, either.

as i have already shown above, the sample of 1004 adults was completely random, which means you didn’t read this poll yourself, but merely took other people’s word for it.

next!

———————-

Wicked Wolf wrote:

“I wouldn’t really expect someone who blindly swallows poll findings to be intelligent enough to handle a simple analogy.”

well, it sounds like you’re calling me out here. whatever. if you’d bothered to read my comments, you would see where i didn’t “blindly swallow” these poll findings. i merely pointed out that the AP article was not incorrect in saying that 67% of the PEOPLE POLLED believed that distributing contraception to teenagers was a good idea. THAT FACT IS NOT IN DISPUTE. it is clearly there, in the poll results.

“But since I believe it is a duty to educate the ignorant, I will elucidate:”

by all means, throw as many 50-cent words as you can at me, if you think you have the chops. i’ve often been accused of being sesquipedalian myself, so i will have no problems whatsoever parsing your syntax, however tortuous you care to make it. and please, keep thinking of me as ignorant, if it helps you get to sleep at night. i’m not bothered one bit, because i know it’s not true, and so do you.

“chickenhawk is to the iraq war as *you* are to school-dispensed birth control pills. It’s very easy to support (or oppose) a public policy issue in which you have no personal stake.”

i have no personal stake *right now*. that does not mean that i won’t in the future.

“Since we all live in America, we all have a stake in the success or failure of its foreign policy, and the consequences that result.”

ah, i see. so i have no personal stake in whether the government chooses to dispense contraception to my children in the future (or to my nieces or nephews, or cousins, or friends, or friends’ children right now), but we ALL have a personal stake in the outcome of the iraq war, even war opponents, simply by virtue of their united states citizenship, even we have no children in the war, and are not directly involved with the war effort ourselves. your analogy is broken.

“To mentally-myopic libtards, the only consequence of war is soldiers dying”

well, i certainly hope you don’t lump me into your neologistic, AM talk radio buzzword category. i’m fully aware that the consequences of war are far broader in scope than the death of a few thousand soldiers. i’m not exactly certain what leads you to believe that “libtards” think the only consequence of war is the death of soldiers, but i have my suspicions. anyway, i was under the impression that “libtards” thought the consequences of war were regional destabilization, destruction of infrastructure, massive corporate war profiteering and general corruption. the death of soldiers, to these bozos, is little more than an afterthought.

“you’re perfectly willing to allow a school to dispense a drug to my daughters that not only can play havoc with a developing endocrine system,”

i’m only willing if you are. in fact, i’m not willing at all. i merely hold the position that, if YOU’RE OK WITH IT, then i’m OK with your decision to be OK with it. this is in keeping with a more LIBERTARIAN view that people should be free to decide what is best for them, and for their children. i guess you didn’t really pick up on that, probably because you assumed that i am a liberal simply because i adopted a contrary position to most everyone else in this forum on this one specific issue.

i don’t suppose you picked up on the fact, either, that this poll doesn’t appear to be specifically about the birth control PILL, but about contraception in general. do condoms play havoc with a young girl’s fragile and still developing endocrine system?

“This failure is aided and abbetted by a popular culture that through its entertainment media, tries to instill a hedonistic, instant-gratification, self-centered, personal responsibility-avoidance ethos. In short, liberalism/socialism.”

well, this isn’t properly the forum for you to explain how in the world you get from hedonism to liberalism, much less how you get from hedonism to socialism (the two are practically oxymorons), or how liberalism and socialism are interchangeable.

“I realize that you caveat your position by saying ‘with parental consent.’ What a convenient cop-out for you.”

is it a cop-out to support a parent’s right to choose what’s best for their child? is it a cop-out to suggest that the school should consult with parents individually on the welfare of their children before taking any action that the parents might feel would be deleterious to the health of their children? you sound upset because i’m acknowledging the parents’ supremacy on this issue. how odd. it almost sounds as if your trying to find some way, however tenuous, to make me fit into this “libtard” stereotype you’re carrying around in your brain.

“Already children are allowed in some states to get an abortion without parental knowledge or consent. It’s a small step from there to schools handing out birth control without parental consent in the name of “confidentiality” and a supposed right to privacy on the part of a minor.”

this is a slippery slope argument, a logical fallacy, and as such, it invalidates itself, prima facie. this is freshman composition and rhetoric stuff. i would’ve thought someone as intelligent as you wouldn’t fall for such a flimsy rhetorical tactic.

“The school should be educating children in math, reading, objective history and the hard sciences, not participating in stealth social engineering projects.”

public schools are nothing but social engineering projects. haven’t you noticed? anyway, how are conducting public polls, and publishing the results on the internet, and in widely-read public news outlets, and consulting parents beforehand, in any way stealthy? seems about as out in the open as such a campaign could possibly be. but what do i know? i’m an ignorant “libtard” who requires elucidative tutelage from a superior intellect who uses big words in an attempt to establish his superiority, but who stoops to slippery slope arguments and ad hominem attacks when logic fails him.

your misplaced condescension is duly noted.
esthier
March 20th, 2008 at 11:41 am
i do not imagine that giving teenagers contraception would solve the problem of illegal immigration. but then, i don’t think many other people think that, either.

Seriously? I haven’t read through this entire thread, but if you were like this all the way through, it’s understandable the posters took you for a lib. Though libertarians are often just as obnoxious. Unless you really are as intelligent as Wicked Wolf seems to believe, I find it hard to believe that you didn’t understand what “any problem at all” was in reference to.

well, seeing as the problem is not “any problem whatsoever”, but teen pregnancy specifically, then the only way that distributing birth control to teens would not at least **reduce the incidence of teen pregnancy** is if teens received it but did not use it.

And this is where you are wrong. The truth is that teen pregnancy has only increased with the availability of contraceptives. See, birth control must not just be taken, it must also be taken properly, every day at the same time of day. Stupid teens who think they’re smart enough to have sex do stupid things like forget to take the pill but have sex anyway believing they’re being smart about it. That’s the entire reason for the paradox I described above. Kids who would normally be more cautious about sex or just have less sex (thus reducing the statistical chance of pregnancy) become reckless with the belief they are being protected.

Then, aside from the issue of pregnancy, there are those who are stupid enough to believe that they are being protected from STDs.

But aside from all of that, this should really be a non issue. If a teen wants to get birth control, she can go to her local clinic with parental permission. As SG said, schools don’t even hand out aspirin (in fact, holding it while on campus can get you suspended). So why are they so eager to give out the pill? Why is this even a necessary discussion?
Noyzmakr
March 20th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
amber says… “have all of the boys in school fitted with a VAS clip….’

Ummm….how about we just teach them not to have sex until they’re old enough to except the responsibility that comes with it?

I don’t want the government slapping some “clip” on anyone’s kids. What’s next, clamp their fingers in a vice to prevent unwanted pinches on the bum?

I’ll leave mercurialohearn’’s comments for you guys. I don’t debate people who can’t grasp the simplest of concepts.
amber
March 20th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
Noyzmaker, best read the whole contract before you sign on the dotted line. I feel for you, though, selective reading is a terrible imparement and I hope you can get treatment and recover. I’ll be praying for you.

Amber
DEZ
March 20th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
mercurialohearn sure is a windbag.
Schools are only social engineering projects because of socialists such as himself.
Noyzmakr
March 20th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
Ooops sorry..I missed the qualifier at the end. Please except my apologies.
mercurialohearn
March 20th, 2008 at 8:29 pm
Noyzmaker wrote:

“Ummm….how about we just teach them not to have sex until they’re old enough to except the responsibility that comes with it?”

that’s worked really well so far, hasn’t it? oh wait, no, no it hasn’t.

it’s ok if, in the heat of the moment, you missed my qualifier. i have absolutely no interest in seeing the state usurp the rights of parents to determine how their children are raised.
mercurialohearn
March 20th, 2008 at 8:40 pm
DEZ:

more trolling, i see! i did say that i have been accused of sequipedalianism, which, in layman’s terms, means that i acknowledge being a windbag. oh well.

i’m not a socialist, though. perhaps you should actually take some time off from hurling insults and actually read what i wrote.

but i understand if you’re incapable of actually debating an issue with other people, and that’s ok. not everyone is cut out for that sort of thing.
mercurialohearn
March 20th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
esther wrote:
“And this is where you are wrong. The truth is that teen pregnancy has only increased with the availability of contraceptives. ”

care to provide statistics for that? everything i’ve read seems to suggest that teenage pregnancy rates in the united states have been steadily dropping since the 1950s, when they were at their highest (1).

europe seems to enjoy the lowest teen pregnancy rate among developed nations, too (2). interestingly, european attitudes towards sex are on the whole far less repressive than they are in the united states. even then, the overall trend has been downwards.

secondly, teen pregnancies can be the result of a variety of factors, not just the availability of contraception, although it flies in the face of reason to suggest that readily available contraception actually contributes to a higher rate of pregnancy.

“Stupid teens who think they’re smart enough to have sex do stupid things like forget to take the pill but have sex anyway believing they’re being smart about it.”

well, at least you recognized the nonsensical proposition you are making. but we’re talking about contraception here, which includes non-medicinal preventative measures, like condoms and IUDs.

why do you think teens are stupid, by the way?

finally, i’ll address the comment you made at the beginning of your post: my viewpoint on this issue may be libertarian, but i have found that anyone who subscribes whole cloth to a single ideology tends to be obnoxious, whether s/he is liberal or conservative, athiest or theist, or libertarian, or whatever. whenever you become convinced of the truth of your own ideas, you have closed off your mind to the infinite number of contradictory variables that exist in the universe. i subscribe to no ideology, which is why i am always amused at how quickly other people peg me as one thing or the other based solely on a single issue. does that mean that most other people don’t think for themselves, but simply believe whatever their ideology dictates? i think that type of mindset, regardless of the ideology, is more dangerous to the integrity of our society and our culture than any number of unintended, underage pregnancies.

1. The National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy. (1997). What the Polling Data Tell Us: A Summary of Past Surveys on Teen Pregnancy.

2. UNICEF. (2001). A League Table of Teenage Births in Rich Nations.
JohnMG
March 20th, 2008 at 9:04 pm
Yeah. So everybody else better just shut up, you hear me? Am I gonna have to take off my belt? Don’t make me have to come up these stairs………
JohnMG
March 20th, 2008 at 9:25 pm
…….”i have found that anyone who subscribes whole cloth to a single ideology tends to be obnoxious, whether s/he is liberal or conservative, athiest or theist, or libertarian, or whatever. whenever you become convinced of the truth of your own ideas, you have closed off your mind to the infinite number of contradictory variables that exist in the universe……..”

There are few absolutes in life but you have just provided as an example, a most damning self-assessment of your person, a feat upon which I find it impossible to improve.
Noyzmakr
March 20th, 2008 at 9:28 pm
Okay….I’ll bite now…

mercurialohearn says…

“….anyone who subscribes whole cloth to a single ideology tends to be obnoxious, whether s/he is liberal or conservative, athiest or theist, or libertarian, or whatever. whenever you become convinced of the truth of your own ideas, you have closed off your mind to the infinite number of contradictory variables that exist in the universe.”

Conservatives are the only people in this country thinking independently. Besides, there can be only one truth. You’re either right or wrong. There is no gray area on any subject. Just because we humans may sometimes be unable to see that truth doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Everyone agreed the Earth was flat once too. Knowledge brings understanding and that breeds freedom. Being blinded to the truth because you wish to see all sides of the argument just makes you blind.
DEZ
March 20th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
” i see! i did say that i have been accused of “sequipedalianism”
sesquipedalianism.
There fixed that for you, If your going to use 2 dollar words, At least spell them correctly.
Irony really is lost on you isn’t it.
Oh, Ever think about that unused key called shift?
JohnMG
March 20th, 2008 at 10:30 pm
DEZ; sesque……. seqes……… sexispqe…………susquipid……. sesquipide………. blowhard!!
Warmonger Infidel
March 20th, 2008 at 10:42 pm
“And yes, mercurialohearn, I have a real problem with people who don’t have a dog in the hunt deciding what’s best morally or socially for my kids, or now in my stage of life, grandkids.”

Yep…..and I’ll stick by the quote you referred to.

so you admit that you have grandkids, but that other people with grandkids, or new parents whose children are not yet old enough to go to school, or people like me, who may be thinking of having children and are concerned about the world into which these children might be born, do not have the “dog in the hunt” that you have with, uh, well, with your grandkids. aren’t your grandkids’ parents supposed to be the ones with the dog in the hunt, and not you? okay. your double standard is noted.

Admit that I have grandkids? Do you find that exceptional that someone admits to having grandchildren? Ok, you win. I’ll admit it again. However, if you bothered to read what I said, it was that I have a problem with people that have no dog in the hunt deciding for my grandchildren you twit. I didn’t say anything about someone else’s children and grandchildren. If someone else, you included, is freaking dumb enough to allow someone else not connected with your children or grandchildren to make those kind of decisions independent of your input, then you, or they are, in my honest opinion, guilty of felony child neglect. Now if you are involved with the schools in that decision, then you’re just guilty of bad decision making and unfortunately, that’s not a crime. Oh, and if you weren’t so freaking smug in your assessment of where people are in their lives (obviously you have a bias against grandparents and have no clue of the inter-family relationships that go on in a healthy environment), you might have thought that maybe, just maybe, this particular grandparent is actually raising one or more of his/our grandchildren do to one of my adult children not being able to raise them through no fault of their own.

I must say, however, that you are quite quick on your feet. It took you only, what, 4 months to compose a reply to your November post?

Now to paraphrase you……NEXT!
DEZ
March 20th, 2008 at 10:48 pm
I know MG, This has to be the most narcissistic self absorbed introvert that ever had delusions of grandeur.
Any human on the planet that disagrees is beneath his superior intellect.
He is the Alpha and Omega, Just ask him.
He hurls insults with his nose in the air, And belittles others for the same.
DEZ
March 20th, 2008 at 10:50 pm
War, Damn man damn glad to see ya!
JohnMG
March 20th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
Hey WI, welcome back. Remember a time when we were kids. In the neighborhood I grew up in, if you stepped across the line, any adult felt the obligation to jerk you back to the center, maybe administer a pat on the back(side), take your measure, then inform your mom or dad of the misdeed. Everybody looked out for everyone else’s kids…it was just what everybody did. That was the real sense of community. It’s also what isn’t allowed to be done any more.
sheehanjihad
March 20th, 2008 at 10:54 pm
Hey WARMONGER!!! Good to have you do a post!! What DEZ said.
DEZ
March 20th, 2008 at 11:37 pm
“teen pregnancies can be the result of a variety of factors”
What the hell planet are you from, Cause here we just call it sex.
I am not shaking this virgins hand!!!!
Gila Monster
March 21st, 2008 at 4:19 am
I’m not sure if it’s worth responding to MercO but what the hell.

Ipsos polls, especially when tagged with an MSM outlet, are historically biased. They may claim it’s a random poll but the demographics usually reveal their intended bias. You don’t get to be the 6th largest marketing research firm in the world without giving your customers exactly what they want to hear. As SG pointed out with this poll, Democrats were oversampled by at least 13% whereas naturally, Repubs and Independents were intentionally under-sampled. In addition, only 30% of respondents were actually parents of school-aged children. If those two facts don’t raise your eyebrows about the results, well, I suppose you’re just seeing what you want to see MercO and not the facts. I believe you made that point about S&L readers yet you are doing the very same thing. Irony goes both ways MercO.

“care to provide statistics for that? everything i’ve read seems to suggest that teenage pregnancy rates in the united states have been steadily dropping since the 1950s, when they were at their highest (1).”

Sorry but your UN figures are wrong, US teen pregnancy rate peaked in the early 1990’s and for the most part have steadily declined since then. From the NCHS;

http://tinyurl.com/2e6p6r

Other charts at that site go back to 1890 if you care to learn the truth.

“europe seems to enjoy the lowest teen pregnancy rate among developed nations, too (2). interestingly, european attitudes towards sex are on the whole far less repressive than they are in the united states. even then, the overall trend has been downwards.”

Hmmm? Seems that 20 of the top 25 countries with high teenage birthrates are members of the EU. I guess your theory has a few holes in it. So much for the progressive Europeans, eh?

http://tinyurl.com/2oyj9p

I can readily dismantle many, if not all of your arguments MercO but it’s getting late and I really don’t see the point of continuing this with someone who really doesn’t have a leg to stand on.

Look my friend, you may feel very smug coming to this site with your obviously condescending attitude, making feeble attempts at self-perceived intellect, but when you intentionally engage in a gunfight, don’t bring a knife.

BTW, ever heard of Spellcheck and/or capitalization? You may want to brush up on that.
SG
March 21st, 2008 at 8:02 am
Merc, please be respectful of other posters. And please use proper capitalization. It just makes things easier to read.

Thank you.
esthier
March 24th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
It seems I was beaten to the punch in posting stats on my earlier assertions. While teen pregnancy seems to be on the decline in recent years, contraceptives were not invented in the 21st century. My point stands.

but we’re talking about contraception here, which includes non-medicinal preventative measures, like condoms and IUDs.

Actually, the article was talking only about the pill, medicine that screws with a girl’s hormones at a time when she’s just learning to deal with them. They can actually increase depressing during or before her menstrual cycle.

But even still, are you trying to argue that stupid teens are going to use condoms properly? Those have some of the worst rates. If a kid puts it on too tight, it’ll burst. If he puts on two, trying to be “extra safe,” which incidentally happened to a friend of mine, it’ll still burst.

IUDs and shots will be more effective since it takes the responsibility out of the teen’s hands, but they still carry the hormonal effects most parents wouldn’t want on their preteen daughters.

why do you think teens are stupid, by the way?

Because they are, and because I was one at one time. They’re still kids, and they still need guidance from adults who actually care about them as people. It’s our responsibility to help them.

But I also found evidence in your own works cited: What the Polling Data Tell Us: A Summary of Past Surveys on Teen Pregnancy.

76 percent of girls and 58 percent of boys report that girls have sex because their boyfriends want them to.
Girls with more self-confidence are less likely to have had unsafe sex.
Sixty-two percent said that teens don’t think they’ll get pregnant
Fifty-five percent said “teenagers have sex when they are drunk or on drugs”
Eighty-five percent of girls identified drinking as a major factor leading to sex.
More than half of those surveyed by PARADE said movies (57 percent) and television (55 percent) influenced teens to have sex before they were ready; 44 percent said music had a similar effect.
And 76 percent agreed that “If young people saw that the TV stars they admire use birth control they would be more likely to do so themselves.”

Kids are having sex because of what they saw on TV and because they feel bad about themselves. They’re making decisions that will affect them for the rest of their lives based on really stupid things. I realize some adults make decisions for the same reasons, and those adults are stupid too. Fortunately for civilization’s sake, less adults make those mistakes.

Funny thing though, the only thing I didn’t find on that thing was your assertion that teen pregnancy’s been on the decline since the 1950s, and seriously, I’ve never even heard someone make that claim. After all, ‘68 was the “Summer of Love.” Hippies who thought jobs were unnecessary wouldn’t have been real big on buying contraceptives or getting abortions.

whenever you become convinced of the truth of your own ideas, you have closed off your mind to the infinite number of contradictory variables that exist in the universe.

No offense against you intended (sincerely), but you’ve just reminded me of a famous Coulter quote (paraphrased) “liberals’ minds are so open their brains have fallen out.”

Having an open mind is one thing, but assuming moral relativism and never being sure of your own opinions is another thing entirely.

That said, I wasn’t calling you a libertarian. I was merely stating a fact. Both liberals and libertarians can be extremely annoying, especially online. I do not know and really don’t care which way you lean.

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