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California Sues Automakers For Global Warming

From a joyous Reuters:

California sues automakers over greenhouse emissions

Published: September 20, 2006

SAN FRANCISCO California said Wednesday that it was suing six of the world’s largest automakers, including General Motors and Toyota Motor, over global warming, charging that greenhouse gases from their vehicles have caused billions of dollars in damages.

The lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court in Northern California, was the first of its kind to seek to hold manufacturers liable for the damages caused by their vehicles’ emissions, Bill Lockyer, the state attorney general, said.

The lawsuit also names Ford Motor, Chrysler Motors, which is the U.S. arm of DaimlerChrysler of Germany, and the North American units of Honda Motor and Nissan Motor of Japan.

Lockyer said that he would seek "tens or hundreds of millions of dollars" from the automakers.

The suit seeks damages related to pollution, beach erosion and reduced water supplies as a result of the past, ongoing and future contributions by the companies to global warming. It is the latest action by California to push businesses and the U.S. government to address the issue…

Bogus science wins! (Including of course, President in his mind, Al Gore.)

Lockyer said that he would seek "tens or hundreds of millions of dollars" from the automakers.

Why stop there? Why not a million kajillion? How much is a blue sky worth, anyway?

This will be the tobacco settlement scam all over again.

Clearly Californians want to drive a stake through the heart of whatever is left of the American automakers, and anyone foolish enough to come here to make cars.

These people won’t be happy until the only industry left is taking in each other’s laundry. Just like in the third world.

Only we will be using "environmentally sensitive" laundry detergent.

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50 Responses to “California Sues Automakers For Global Warming”

  1. Gila Monster

    “Lockyer said that he would seek “tens or hundreds of millions of dollars” from the automakers.”

    Should have figured, Lockyer is a Dhimmi, of course, and a certified moonbat who gradu-mutated from Bizerkely;

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Lockyer

    Only in NorthCoast Kaliforniastan folks, home of Babs Botox Boxer, SanFranNan Piglosi, et al..!!

  2. Kilmeny

    One could be forgiven for thinking at first glance that Reuters has turned into the Onion. So we sue the auto companies, they stop making cars altogether, and we’re all riding horses again (except for Algore). How long before Lockyer sues Mother Nature for damages due to increased ground, water and air pollution from horse “emissions”?

  3. DW

    Something like 17,000 good-paying jobs in North America are going to disappear next year and that’s just from Ford alone.
    That also doesn’t take into account fighting or -God forbid- paying out lawsuits from moonbats.

    Just where the hell do these idiots think the tax-dollars come from that pay for their loony social programs???!

  4. she_angst

    Just watch, the next step for the moonbats will be to hold the consumer accountable, either by passing a CO2 tax on your car, lawnmower, and charcoal barbeque, or by a direct class action lawsuit against consumers.

    Filed in court as the case of Moonbats -vs- Everybody

    I’m sure campfires for moonbat Kumbayah singalongs in Yosemite will be exempt of course, as will Algores BMW (well he HAS to be able to use a car to get out the message doesn’t he?).

    The Moonbats and the Muslims, the M&M’s of insanity, coming to a neigborhood near you.

  5. 1sttofight

    Those 17,000 good paying jobs with 12 months of paid training will be able to cook an edible hamburger And maybe be able to put all the stuff on the bun and make correct change.

  6. NamVet63

    What these auto makers should do is issue a complete recall of all the autos in California….Lets this jerk Lockyer walk to work. If that happened, he wouldn’t be walking to work for long…He’d be outta job pronto….Hey WI, tell everyone where Californians would be without autos…..

  7. Cheese_Tensor

    This is soooo dumb.

    Let ‘em walk, I say!

    Seriously, with CA’s deficit and finacial issues, they’re gonna waste god-knows how many $ on this idiocy?

    Is “doofi” the plural of doofus?

  8. Arctain

    Not long ago (actually, almost 13 years ago, now…) I was driving to school for the day (college, paid for by the GI Bill) and this incident occurred. I lived clear across town from the school (about 20 minutes away)

    There was a group of people protesting at a gas station because there was a debate raging in Florida regarding the drilling for oil off the Florida coast. Of course, I had my window down and could hear thier chants, etc… I couldn’t help it - I yelled to these bozo’s “How did you get here to protest?” Too moronic to see the illogical protest they were in, one woman actually answered dumbfounded “What do you mean? We drove here!” I shook my head and laughed as I continued on my merry way.

  9. JerseyGrrrl

    Hey, what about Boeing & Airbus? What about GE - they make the jet motors and locomotives too. What about the utilities>? yer electric car is gonna run on electricity generated somewhere - what about the oil companies - those cars wouldn’t pollute if they weren’t burning that wicked gasoline stuff - and what about cows & their methane contribution - and why stop at an any definable amount - why not sue for all the money in the country - yours, mine everybody elses - Oh, yeah except gore & his cronies because they are so noble to be making us so aware of how evil we are… So who is going to get all this money?

  10. NamVet63

    Doofi?? Thats great :) what these fools in the CA govt still haven’t realized that their citizens are moving out faster than they can raise the taxes. Check out the population increases for Nevada and Idaho!

  11. doingwhatican

    If the vehicles are complying with Federal and California EPA standards Lockyer hasn’t a case. A foolish one enriching lawyers for some time to come.

    Further proof that socialism fails once you run out of other peoples money to spend.

    Let’s sue Babs the Boxer and Dianne Feinswine for their methane rhetoric.

  12. mathews

    anyone looking for real data to debunk global warming and other moonbat emotional worship issues look under:
    http://www.junkscience.com/

  13. suek

    I understand that the diesel driven semi-trucks are _really_ big polluters. Why don’t they sue truck manufacturers??? maybe they’re afraid that truckers will refuse to drive in Ca? How about all those diesel tractors the farmers use?

  14. Cheese_Tensor

    NamVet63,

    Yeah, I always refer to these types as being “doofiant” - being loud, nonsensical, and (therefore) of the sub-genera “doofi” - whose root is (I believe) “doof”, the germanic form for “stupid”. I don’t know if all that is right, but it sure sounds good.

    You can always tell which party runs a state: the amount of dooficity present is proportional to the square of the ratio of Libs-to-Cons holding seats in state government. A dooficity factor of 1.0 is “wobbly, bordering on precarious”. I think CA is up in the hundreds.

  15. DEZ

    When they pulled this stunt on the tobacco companies and won,
    They were emboldened and just kept suing, the result was a 300 percent increase in the price of a pack of cigarettes.
    The same can be expected for the price of a car.
    What poor working slob has a hundred grand for a Ford Tempo.
    Theft bye trial is a great way to destroy an economy.
    Can’t we just drop all the lawyers in the middle east.

  16. DW

    It seems I was somewhat conservative in my lay-off figures.
    Turns out it’s 30,000 for Ford by 2012.
    And 30,000 for GM by 2008.
    http://www.usatoday.com/money/.....d-q4_x.htm
    Great time for the industry to be hit with a ridiculous lawsuit.
    Admittedly, I’m using Canadian figures here because I don’t know what unionized workers make in the US, or how heavily you are taxed, but assume an average salary of $50,000 and a federal tax deducted right off the top of $8,500. That’s more than half a billion dollars right there -just in federal tax (not counting later state, city, sales, whatever other taxes you get hit with). that the feds would lose. Every year.
    Half a billion. Imagine how many urine-soaked crucifixes, hotels for Katrina victims, safe injection sites, gay theatre groups and welfare cheques that’d fund. Just from 60,000 guys.
    And these idiots want to put even more people out of work?

  17. wirenut

    Hey it’s not just cars in Kaliforniastan,(love that one GM) it’s also your insulation for your house,and ANY product that we use on a day to day basis.Look at any thing you buy and there’s a Kalifornia lawyer clause somewhere on it,when it comes to any building materials.WHAT do they know that we don’t? LAW-SUITS!!!!

  18. Warmonger Infidel

    The loonies of lala land are at it again. The average driver in the PR OF C intentionally uses much more gas that is necessary by their awful driving habits. Damn I’ve been down here since Feb and just want to go home for awhile….away from this moonbattyism.

    This is either a ploy generated by the governator to gain votes in the peoples republic of the bay area, or a ploy by the DNC to wreck the economy and blame it on Bush and the Pubs for the ‘08 POTUS race. And so transparent….

    Every time I return for a project, I’m reminded why I left my native state.

  19. Warmonger Infidel

    wirenut….you’re right. So I’m waiting to be served with my lawsuit for SMOKING. I know I’m causing the glacier ice to melt.

  20. 1sttofight

    WI,

    I am just a poor misplaced Nigerian with 80 gazillion dollars to share with you. If you will just post your bank account number or CC # I will be happy to share it with you.

  21. mathews

    witness for the defense at:
    http://www.sweetness-light.com.....ment-37747
    Note how even bad news for the global warming crowd is rebutted with SLANDER.
    Colorado State professor disputes global warming is human-caused
    http://www.reporterherald.com/.....sp?ID=6894
    Publish Date: 9/19/2006
    Views ‘out of step’ with others are good for science, academic says

    By Kate Martin
    The Daily Reporter-Herald
    Global warming is happening, but humans are not the cause, one of the nation’s top experts on hurricanes said Monday morning.

    …lots more at the links…

  22. Warmonger Infidel

    1st…..first thing in the morning it’s on the way. Seems I’ve been getting a lot of them from zimbuawa lately. I think Nigeria is out of fashion.

  23. DW

    From the UN climate change meeting in Montreal last December:

    Ruse of gigantic proportions
    Climatologists’ protests drowned in a sea of environmentalist bafflegab
    By Licia Corbella -Calgary Sun

    During the 10-day United Nations Climate Change Conference that wrapped up on Friday in Montreal, a Greenpeace staffer said something so idiotic and implausible that not one of the 10,000 delegates called him on.

    “Global warming can mean colder, it can mean drier, it can mean wetter, that’s what we’re dealing with,” said Steven Guilbeault, the director of the Greenpeace movement for Quebec.

    So now that colder means warmer basically, anything goes.

    These folks can’t lose their argument because they’ve covered all scenarios.

    If an ice age cometh — blame global warming. If a glaciers melt, global warming is the cause. If droughts akin to the ones mentioned in the Bible happen, blame global warming.

    The Dec. 3 Canadian Press story that quoted Guilbeault started with this ironic lead: “Tens of thousands of people ignored frigid temperatures … to lead a worldwide day of protest against global warming” while chanting “it’s hot in here,” to the beat of drummers.

    The quote by the Greenpeace director reminded me of a quote I read that was sent to me by Benny Peiser, a British university researcher and the editor of CCNet, a scholarly electronic newsletter on the pseudo-science behind global warming.

    “By invoking the possibility of ‘global warming causing an ice age,’ the industry are now in the position of being able to point to each and every weather event, whether hot or cold, as being evidence of global warming,” wrote John Daly, a renowned global warming skeptic, in the summer of 2004 just months before he died.

    “Heads we win, tails you lose. It has become a closed logical system where the theory is now impervious to any external evidence that may contradict it.”

    Besides the fact that a growing number of the world’s top climatologists disagree with the premise that human activity is the primary cause — or even a significant cause — of global warming, the science was not debated at all at the 11th annual UN gab fest that contributes enormous amounts of greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions to the atmosphere owing to all of the jetting about done by the delegates.

    Many of them remained warm in four-star hotels for the duration of the conference, thanks exclusively to fossil fuels.

    Speaking of fossil fuels — you know the stuff Alberta has plenty of and that came from the corpses of dinosaurs — well, consider this.

    Dinosaurs are cold blooded, oversized reptiles.

    Back in the time of the dinosaurs, Alberta had a tropical climate.

    Who knew SUVs existed so long ago?

    Rest of the column here:
    http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Co.....47495.html

  24. wirenut

    HEY I want a piece of that 80 gazillion too!

    Will ya tke a check???

  25. wampaku40

    Global warning might be the cause behind the Cubs winning a World Series, or the Vikings and Bills meeting in a Super Bowl (which they will both lose) if these numbnuts were to really cover all their bases….

    I know a nice patch of lonely desert for those lawyers, BTW. We could ship them straight from Kaliforniastan and they can stay in the very exciting Ramadi Inn where there are many potential clients lined up to see them. Limited to one briefcase only.

  26. DEZ

    Hey wirenut,
    I left out the fact that housing is a target, But give them time.
    The lawsuits for fast food have already started, I do not remember which chain was sued for animals getting their heads stuck in discarded ice cream cups.
    But the nut jobs want to sue the fast food industry for the medical costs of being
    overweight and the problems it causes.
    They never learn a simple fact, You can not tax a society into prosperity,
    And you sure as hell can not sue a nation into prosperity.
    I saw a good lawyer in the paper the other day. He took a dirt nap.
    If I have offended any lawyers tough shit.

  27. wampaku40

    DEZ,

    My father went into law when it was a profession. By the time he retired from the military after serving 20 yrs active duty, it had become another filthy business, and he gave it up. Disgusting really when one has to apologize or hide from others what was once an involvement and passion for an honorable pursuit.

  28. wirenut

    DEZ,,Now don’t be to hard on the left’s best.Don’t forget about the save the trees groups that see fit to burn down housing developments to protect the “tree’s”. I guess their not with the same branch as the global warming crowd,sorry all pun intended.Don’t morons make easy prey?

  29. DW

    You all no doubt heard about Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka -the “School girl killers”. ca:1993
    The police were unable to find tapes that they had made of their victims. Bernardo told his first lawyer where they were. The lawyer held onto them for 18 months with telling anybody about it. Those tapes would have put Homolka in jail for life. Instead, since there was no real evidence to convict Bernardo- other than her testimony- she was able to cut a deal with the crown attourney (DA to you guys).
    Now she’s out on the street. Free as a bird. She even has a dog.
    The lawyer got off with a reprimand.

  30. DEZ

    Wamp.
    I have put all lawyers in one basket, That’s most likely not fair.
    I am sure that 99 percent of lawyers give the other one percent a bad name.
    Your Dad should never hide the fact that he was a lawyer.
    A good man is just that, And it is self evident, And shows in how and what he does.
    Our nation has come to the point that doctors kill.
    Lawyers put winning over truth and justice.
    Judges legislate.
    Politicians put self interest over representation.
    And journalists think they are our government.
    So my insults should only be taken by those that deserve them.
    Like my dad used to say,
    The truth only hurts when it should.
    Your father served our nation for 20 years, I salute him.

  31. DEZ

    Ah.
    DW, A lawyer hiding facts that could prove guilt, Tell me it is not so.
    I thought only Politicians and journalists are supposed to do that.
    sarcasm off

  32. wampaku40

    And he loves good lawyer jokes…..

  33. DANEgerus

    Lockyer(D) has a history of Activist abuse of authority

    So you thought they were done when they took down big tobacco? Well Lockyer is taking time off from attacking your 2nd Amendment rights to dictate what you can eat:

    “In taking this action, I am not telling people to stop eating potato chips or french fries,” Lockyer said. “I know from personal experience that, while these snacks may not be a necessary part of a healthy diet, they sure taste good.”

    “Now, if Attorney General Bill Lockyer has his way, you can expect warning labels for fast-food French fries and potato chips. If he succeeds, the legislature might as well post a billboard at the border that reads: ‘Eating in California can be hazardous to your health.’… [W]hatever I do, it must be wrong, because there’s always a sign telling me that what I’m eating, drinking or buying is bad for me. If all of these things are so hazardous, why am I alive?” -Debra Saunders

    Lockyer(D) also backed the Mayor of SF’s activist implementation of unlawful same-sex marriages while ironically making this statement:

    “I would love to personally escort Lay to an 8-by-10 cell that he could share with a tattooed dude who says, ‘Hi, my name is Spike, honey,’ ” Bill Lockyer(D) advocating homosexual rape as fitting punishment for Kenneth Lay who is still working for JFKerry(D)’s wife.

    Latent projection?

  34. SG

    I love your posts, Wirenut. But on my various browsers you aren’t getting any spaces after your punctuation–commas and periods. If it’s a machine/software thing, I understand.

    It just makes it harder to read your great comments.

  35. Nahanni

    You know I think the country is really starting to get sick and tired of these LLL bozos.

  36. artboyusa

    Silent Spring, Population Bomb, Acid Rain, China Syndrome, Big Freeze…the list goes on and on. Decades of environmental catastrophe snake oil bullshit that never happened and STILL well-meaning people sign on to this crap and less well-meaning people continue to find ways to cash in with these dubious disaster predictions. Its depressing. When God made people, why did he have to make so many of them so damn stupid? Was it just to piss the rest of us off? Make our lives more interesting?

  37. wirenut

    SG…I’m try’n something different right now. See if this clears up any problems. Everything looks fine on my moniter here, except my spelling and use of punctuation. thanks, and please let me know if everthing still runs together.

  38. conant

    Just got the news that the spinach contaminated with E.coli came from three counties in Kalicornia. Perhaps the carmakers can get a setoff of all the methane produced by those who pooped due to eating the stuff.

  39. silver charm

    conant, I don’t think they could get a set off for San Benito County. That place truly sux.

  40. JerseyGrrrl

    And he loves good lawyer jokes…..
    OK W40, here’s my favorite lawyer joke - got it in an email - short, funny, easy to remember, here goes,

    This guy calls a law office and asks to speak to his lawyer. The receptionist tells him “I’m sorry but your attorney passed away last week”. He hangs up. The next day the same guy calls, and again, the receptionist tells him “I’m sorry but your lawyer died last week”, again he hangs up. The next day the same guy calls and, again, asks to talk to his lawyer. The receptionist says “Listen, I keep telling you, your lawyer is dead, why do you keep calling?!” To which the guy replies,”Yeah, I know, . . . I just love hearing it.”

  41. SG

    Things look great on my browser, Wirenut. Thanks!

  42. mathews

    Global warming scam debated in Denver
    http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_4387552
    Article Last Updated: 09/24/2006 11:41:07 AM MDT
    Global warming?
    By Mark Jaffe
    Denver Post Staff Writer

    The words “global warming” provoke a sharp retort from Colorado State University meteorology professor emeritus William Gray: “It’s a big scam.”

    And the name of climate researcher Kevin Trenberth elicits a sputtered “opportunist.”

    At the National Center for Atmospheric Research, where Trenberth works, Gray’s name prompts dismay. “Bill Gray is completely unreasonable,” Trenberth says. “He has a mind block on this.”

    Only 55 miles separate NCAR’s headquarters, nestled in the Front Range foothills, from CSU in Fort Collins. But when it comes to climate change, the gap is as big as any in the scientific community.

    At Boulder-based NCAR, researchers project a world with warmer temperatures, fiercer storms and higher seas.

    From CSU, Gray and Roger Pielke Sr., another climate professor emeritus, question the data used to make those projections and their application to regional climate change.

    Science by its nature is disputatious - with every idea challenged, tested and retested. It’s always been that way.

    In the 18th century, Sir Isaac Newton and Gottfried Leibniz sparred over claims to the discovery of calculus.

    About 140 years later, Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution was challenged - based on the science of the day - by Harvard University professor Louis Agassiz and the British Museum’s Sir Richard Owen.

    Now the battle is over global warming, or more accurately over myriad details - like temperature readings and the thickness of sea ice - upon which the larger idea is based.

    On one hand, the fight is a natural part of the scientific process. But it also creates dissonance and uncertainty.

    “Some of this noise won’t stop until some of these scientists are dead,” said James Hansen, head of the Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York City, and among the first to sound the alarm over climate change.

    While science is comfortable with uncertainty, policymakers are not, and that is what has turned this scientific debate into front-page headlines.

    “I think there is a debate about whether it’s caused by mankind or whether it’s caused naturally,” President Bush said in a July interview.

    To be sure, Gray and Pielke are in a scientific minority. Still, their challenges remain part of the fractious scientific process.

    “Science needs skeptics,” said NCAR researcher Warren Washington.

    Still, a broad scientific consensus has emerged that human activity is contributing to climate change.
    Findings by panels created by the National Academy of Science to resolve disputes - such as conflicting satellite and ground temperature records - have supported the trends in global climate change.

    And things that the NCAR models predict - such as thinning sea ice and melting glaciers - are coming to pass, although scientists say more data are needed to verify those trends.

    After more than two decades of research, scientists, even most skeptics, agree that:

    Since 1750, the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, mainly from burning fossil fuels, has risen to about 380 parts per million from 286 parts per million.

    It doesn’t appear carbon dioxide levels have been that high in the past 650,000 years.

    Carbon dioxide is continuing to build in the atmosphere by about 1.5 parts per million a year, and as a so-called greenhouse gas, it traps the sun’s heat.

    The Earth’s average temperature has warmed about 1 degree Fahrenheit since 1880 and is now warmer than it has been in the past 400 years.

    Average global temperatures are likely to rise - this is where the debate begins - somewhere between 2 and 10 degrees Fahrenheit by 2100.

    The heat will cause global ocean levels to rise 3 to 39 inches this century.

    In the film “An Inconvenient Truth,” former Vice President Al Gore tends to fix on the upper end of the projections, while skeptics point out that the lower end may be as likely and less catastrophic.

    But even small changes may have big effects. When the average temperature dropped by a little less than 1 degree Fahrenheit in about 1400, it ushered a period called the “Little Ice Age.”

    It was a time when advancing Swiss Alp glaciers crushed villages, England’s Thames River froze and short growing seasons led to famines.

    Most scientists also agree extreme weather events like Hurricane Katrina or Los Angeles’ July record 119-degree Fahrenheit temperature cannot be directly attributed to global warming.

    On this much there is some scientific consensus.

    What the impact of rising temperatures or higher seas will be is more open to debate, according to skeptics such as Pielke, because most of the calculations are global averages.

    “This tells you nothing about what’s going to happen in any region,” Pielke said.

    While Pielke agrees carbon dioxide is forcing changes in the climate, he says, “It is not the only forcing.”

    Man-made changes to the land, in addition to about 30 other greenhouse gases - some man-made, some natural - may play an even a bigger role, he said.

    “The public likes simple answers,” Pielke said. “But there isn’t any simple answer here.”

    Simplicity is hard to come by because Earth is a giant, complex heat-moving machine.

    The sun’s rays strike full force at Earth’s middle and glance off the ends - making the equator hotter than the poles.

    Ocean currents, winds, the jet stream and hurricanes are forces trying to balance out the Earth’s heat.

    Efforts to calculate what is going on in the oceans, the land and the atmosphere are an unparalleled exercise.

    The task falls to mathematical models run by supercomputers like the one in NCAR’s basement. These “general circulation models” attempt to keep track of a multitude of variables around the globe - such as ocean currents, air and sea temperatures, rainfall and the composition of the atmosphere.

    “This is a unique exercise in science and a very difficult one,” said Christopher Essex, a mathematician at the University of Western Ontario in Canada.

    The models are trying to project a future world, Essex said, without a complete theoretical base on how climate works and the risk of small errors being amplified.

    Another problem, Essex said, is in the inability to do controlled experiments - one of science’s key tools.

    “There’s only one atmosphere, so you can’t hold everything steady and change just one variable to see what happens,” he said.

    Essex offered his critique of the models at a Los Alamos National Laboratory climate conference in Santa Fe in July.

    At the end of the presentation, CSU’s Gray jumped up and demanded: “Should we base national policy on these models?”

    “I’m not touching that,” Essex replied.

    And then Essex added: “At every stage of the history of science, there has been some element that was impossible, and we’ve found a way around it. I am sure we will here.”

    This did not assuage Bill Gray.

    Gray is among the most strident critics, quick to use words like “fraud” or “gang” to describe the modelers.

    Instead of model projections, Gray looks at the history and patterns of weather to find trends.

    And befitting his 76 years, Gray has a long view. His first report on climate - on the return of the dust bowl - was in the early 1940s when he was in junior high school.

    “We’d gone through a warming trend in the ’40s, and everybody was saying we were going to win World War II but face terrible droughts,”
    Gray said.

    Soon after, temperatures went into a cooling trend and by 1975, Gray points out, there was talk of a coming ice age.

    The Earth does have natural cycles of cooling and warming - during the past 740,000 years there have been eight cycles with four ice ages.

    The cycles appear to be tied to slight variations in the tilt of the Earth toward the sun.

    During the last ice age - which ended about 10,000 years ago - Earth was on average about 4 degrees Fahrenheit cooler, and what is now Manhattan was buried under ice.

    At some point the Earth will wobble on its axis again, setting the stage for an ice age.

    There are other phenomena affecting global temperatures over time, such as El Niño, a Pacific Ocean warm-water mass that appears in roughly five-year cycles and changes world weather patterns.

    And there is the Atlantic thermohaline current, a conveyor belt moving heat north on the surface and then dropping it to the ocean floor and heading back to the equator - a 1,200-year trip.

    Changes in the current lead to changes in temperature. Somehow the models have to account for these natural variations too.

    Gray believes that the warmer temperatures in the Northern Hemisphere are linked to a natural slowing in the thermohaline current, not the carbon dioxide.

    Some of the models also show the current is slowing and that, along with warming oceans, adds to hurricane risks.

    This has sparked one of the biggest scientific disputes of the moment.

    It is a debate in which NCAR’s Trenberth and CSU’s Gray are, of course, on opposite sides.

    Hurricanes feed on warm water, and Trenberth says that warmer sea-surface temperatures and increased atmospheric water vapor - both of which have been measured - will contribute to more intense hurricanes.

    Gray - and other hurricane specialists, including Chris Landsea, the science and operations officer at the National Hurricane Center in Miami - say that the link doesn’t yet exist and that models overstate the case.

    Trenberth concedes that the changes being measured are small, but he adds, “They are all going in one direction.”

    Gray argues that heat by itself isn’t enough - that there are other variables: The air has to be cooler than the ocean, the winds have to be agreeable.

    The dispute led Landsea, who is a former Gray student, to quit as a member of a working group of the United Nations’ Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, or IPCC.

    Trenberth, 61, is the lead author for that working group, whose report is due next year.
    The IPCC was created to assess - through a set of working groups - scientific, technical and socioeconomic information on climate change. It does not, however, do research.

    Landsea, in an open letter to the science community, said the science working group was being “motivated by pre- conceived agendas” and was “scientifically unsound.”

    Even with that, Landsea says: “I am concerned about the trend in global warming. It is a problem.”

    The IPCC science working group - with more than 100 members - has been trying to forge a consensus on the best science, Trenberth said.

    “But it is a struggle to accommodate every viewpoint,” he said. “I don’t know why Chris Landsea acted that way.”

    Landsea isn’t the panel’s only critic.

    “The IPCC has become an inbred process,” Pielke said. “All the scientists I know are doing legitimate work and believe in what they are doing. … Still, it’s a narrow view.”

    Pielke, 59, says his doubts about the climate record began during his stint as Colorado’s climatologist when he realized how inaccurate the state’s thermometer network was.

    Placing a thermometer close to a building or near an air- condition vent can compromise readings, Pielke said.

    When the winds blow from Denver, a Front Range thermometer is influenced by urban effects, Pielke said, and by agricultural activities when it blows from the north.

    Multiply that by tens of thousands of thermometers around the world and the temperature record is suspect, he contends.

    The modeling groups say that what is important is the warming trend.

    NCAR’s Washington, 70, a pioneer in climate modeling, said that 30 years ago the climate models kept track of just the atmosphere and oceans. Today they include more than 10 measurements, including sea ice, clouds and forest growth.

    This year NCAR even added human land-use impacts on climate to the modeling.

    Pielke, who argues that when it comes to climate change both science and policy have focused too much on the carbon dioxide buildup and ways to contain it, said he felt “vindicated.”

    NCAR researcher Linda Mearns, however, said the land- use impact “doesn’t obliterate or remove the greenhouse gas problem.”

    “Roger tries to present it as though he’s the lone voice,” Mearns said. “That’s not true.”

    The models still have problems, Trenberth and the other modelers concede - particularly assessing regional impacts.

    When the NCAR model tries to show Denver’s weather patterns, for example, summer thunderstorms keep coming about noon.

    “We all know they come in the late afternoon, so that’s a problem in the model,” said Trenberth, who was born in New Zealand and trained at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Cambridge, Mass.

    Many issues still have to be resolved, said Chris Folland, a researcher at Britain’s Hadley Centre for Climate Prediction, but the science continues to point in one direction.

    “We’ve shown that the climate change is a true thing,” he said. “We’ve done that with global averages, since that was easiest.

    “The American government might not agree,” Folland said. “Most American scientists do.”

  43. 1sttofight

    There is no doubt that the climate is warming, but man has nothing to do with it and can not prevent it.

  44. DW

    I heard that archaeologists are excavating the remains of farms in Greenland that date back to the 14th century. There weren’t a whole helluva lotta cars and factories in the 14th century.
    And there’s still no John Deere dealership in Greenland today that I know of…

  45. 1sttofight

    What??? No SUVS?

  46. DW

    The Viking farm under the sand in Greenland
    ——————————————————————————–
    April 23, 2001 - In 1991, two caribou hunters stumbled over a log on a snowy Greenland riverbank, an unusual event because Greenland is above the tree line…

    http://www.expressnews.ualbert.....cfm?id=776

  47. 1sttofight

    God, DW, can you imagine what an adventure that would have been, to explore and settle a brand new land?

    I was born way too late.

  48. DW

    Oh I hear you 1st.
    There’s nothing worse than a map with no blank spots, no “Beyond here, be dragons” notations …

  49. 1sttofight

    Well , It is my nap time. I’ll be back later. Yall have a good rest of the day.

  50. mathews

    hey the automakers can now sue for global cooling. more hurricanes is a sign of global warming right so less is global cooling. these automakers are saving the planet.
    Atlantic hurricane season nearly over: forecaster
    http://today.reuters.com/news/.....038;rpc=22
    Tue Oct 3, 2006 10:29am ET
    By Jim Loney

    MIAMI (Reuters) - A noted U.S. hurricane forecaster said on Tuesday the milder-than-expected Atlantic season will produce just two more tropical storms and no more “major” hurricanes due to El Nino conditions in the Pacific.

    The season has so far seen nine tropical storms, of which five reached hurricane strength. William Gray’s forecast team at Colorado State University said that by November 30, the end of the official six-month season, the total will be just 11 storms, with one more hurricane.

    Hurricane forecasts, including Gray’s, have been wildly off target this year following last year’s record-breaking season, when 28 tropical storms formed, besting the old mark of 21 set in 1933. Among the worst of last year’s storms was Hurricane Katrina, which swamped New Orleans and killed 1,500 people along the U.S. Gulf Coast.

    At the beginning of the 2006 season, the Colorado State team predicted there would be 17 tropical storms and said nine would turn into hurricanes with sustained winds of 74 miles per hour (119 km per hour) or more.

    It said five would be “major” hurricanes, which are Category 3 or higher on the five-step Saffir-Simpson scale with sustained winds of at least 111 mph (179 kph) and capable of causing some structural damage to buildings. Only two of this year’s hurricanes have reached Category 3 status and none of the five hit the United States.

    “We expect October to have below-average activity largely due to developing El Nino conditions in the central and eastern Pacific,” Philip Klotzbach, who now leads Gray’s research team, said in a statement. “November activity in El Nino years is very rare.”

    The development of El Nino conditions, a warming of waters in the eastern Pacific, caught forecasters by surprise. El Nino tends to dampen Atlantic hurricane activity by increasing wind shear, a variation of winds speeds at different altitudes.

    Hurricane Katrina became the most expensive natural disaster in U.S. history when it hit the Gulf Coast in August, 2005.


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