SubscribeReport: FBI Raids ‘Ron Paul Dollar’ Operation
Behold this breathless (and as yet unsubstantiated report) from Michael Rivero’s “truther” site, What Really Happened, via their allies at the terrorist site Uruknet:
FBI Raids Liberty Dollar – Confiscates All Ron Paul Dollars
Bernard von NotHaus, WhatReallyHappened.com
November 15, 2007
Dear Liberty Dollar Supporters:
I sincerely regret to inform you that about 8:00 this morning a dozen FBI and Secret Service agents raided the Liberty Dollar office in Evansville.
For approximately six hours they took all the gold, all the silver, all the platinum and almost two tons of Ron Paul Dollars that where just delivered last Friday. They also took all the files, all the computers and froze our bank accounts.
We have no money. We have no products. We have no records to even know what was ordered or what you are owed. We have nothing but the will to push forward and overcome this massive assault on our liberty and our right to have real money as defined by the US Constitution. We should not to be defrauded by the fake government money.
But to make matters worse, all the gold and silver that backs up the paper certificates and digital currency held in the vault at Sunshine Mint has also been confiscated. Even the dies for mint the Gold and Silver Libertys have been taken.
This in spite of the fact that Edmond C. Moy, the Director of the Mint, acknowledged in a letter to a US Senator that the paper certificates did not violate Section 486 and were not illegal. But the FBI and Services took all the paper currency too.
The possibility of such action was the reason the Liberty Dollar was designed so that the vast majority of the money was in specie form and in the people’s hands. Of the $20 million Liberty Dollars, only about a million is in paper or digital form.
I regret that if you are due an order. It may be some time until it will be filled… if ever… it now all depends on our actions.
Everyone who has an unfulfilled order or has digital or paper currency should band together for a class action suit and demand redemption. We cannot allow the government to steal our money! Please don’t let this happen!!! Many of you read the articles quoting the government and Federal Reserve officials that the Liberty Dollar was legal. You did nothing wrong. You are legally entitled to your property. Let us use this terrible act to band together and further our goal – to return America to a value based currency.
Please forward this important Alert… so everyone who possess or use the Liberty Dollar is aware of the situation.
Please click HERE to sign up for the class action lawsuit and get your property back!
If the above link does not work you can access the page by copying the following into your web browser.
http://www.libertydollar.org/classaction/index.php
Thanks again for your support at this darkest time as the damn government and their dollar sinks to a new low.
Bernard von NotHaus
———
Webmaster’s [that is, the lunatic Michael Rivero pictured at right] comment: Thet [sic] the FBI carried out this raid suggests a political motive. Maybe Goerge [sic] Bush was jealous because nobody wants to put his face on coins (just toilet paper).
If the Liberty Dollar was really an illegal form of currency, the raid would have been carried out by the Treasury Department and Secret Service.
Here is the press release announcing the advent of the “Terrorist Liberty Dollar”:
Peace Dollar Battles War Dollar
EVANSVILLE, Ind., Oct. 15 /PRNewswire/ — In an all-out battle, Liberty Dollar in Evansville, Indiana, has issued the 2008 Peace Dollar to “Stop the War.” As if President Bush’s unpopular war does not have enough problems, the Peace Dollar appears to offer an attractive way for the antiwar forces to gain strategic ground at a profit.
Liberty Dollar recently issued a “Presidential” Ron Paul Dollar in support of the Republican peace candidate. Now it asks peace-seeking Americans to start using the Peace Dollar and stop using the US War Dollar, as it finances the Iraq War.
The 2008 Peace Dollar is not government money and cannot be used to fund the war in Iraq. It is good for peace and bad for war. The government uses their printing presses to make money out of thin air to finance their war by diluting every American’s purchasing power… hence higher gas and food prices.
Bernard von NotHaus, the fiery monetary architect of the Liberty Dollar, says that by accepting and spending Peace Dollars, peaceful people can force the government to “Stop the War” because the government will have less money to pay for it. He encourages peace-loving people to use a Peace Dollar the next time they spend money and “Give peace a chance.”
The $10 Peace Dollar is a legal functioning currency dedicated to stop the war. As a private voluntary barter currency it can be used anywhere it is accepted. It is “real money” minted in pure silver and copper that exchanges dollar-for-dollar with the US war dollar. It is dedicated to establishing peace and bringing our boys home. The 2008 Peace Dollar has a face value of ten “Liberty Dollars” and contains one-half ounce of pure .999 fine silver. The $1 Copper Peace Dollar contains one ounce of pure copper.
Von NotHaus urges his fellow Americans who don’t want war — to stop using the war dollar. He encourages everyone to show his or her contempt for the war and vote for peace with Ron Paul and use the Peace Dollar.
Recently, Liberty Dollar sued the US Mint to compel the government to cease claiming voluntary use of the Liberty Dollar as barter is a federal crime. No Liberty Dollar, Ron Paul Dollar or Peace Dollar is claimed to be “legal tender.”
The enemies of our country will stop at nothing to try to bring about our defeat.
55 Responses to “Report: FBI Raids ‘Ron Paul Dollar’ Operation”
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November 15th, 2007 at 12:58 pm
Other than fun money or collecting - I thought that this stuff was illegal. So one article claims it is legal, the other says that it is not ‘legal tender’ - so why plant the idea to ‘use’ the Peace Dollars - for a moral statement?!? Since (as pointed out) it wasn’t the Treasury that conducted the raid - I think it might be more of an action to oust a scam rather than anything else.
Of course anyone who would purchase and use a Ron Paul dollar or Peace Dollar deserves to be scammed - stupid and a lunatic is not a pretty combination.
November 15th, 2007 at 1:03 pm
Okay, let’s be blunt: Ron Paul is gaining a corner on the lunatic vote. The problem with that is that he isn’t a member of a fringe party, such as the Libertarians, Greens or Constitution Party (full disclosure: I changed registration from Republican to Constitution in 2005 out of disgust at Bush. I do consider myself to be a Constitutionalist Conservative, but most of the stands of the Constitution Party repel me. Chances are I’ll re-register again as Independent.), but a fringe member of a major party, and this makes him dangerous.
Paul may be a “small government” type in rhetoric, but he also is affiliated (or his campaign is, at least) with 9/11 “truthers” (see Alex Jones), neo-Nazis, anti-Israel freaks, isolationists (and no, I don’t mean non-interventionists, I do mean isolationists), and the various tinfoil hat wearing, black helicopter seeing, whack-jobs that see conspiracies around every corner. While I favor a small government, lower (or minimal) taxes, and a true federal system, I also understand that the US, by virtue of our size alone, has international commitments and that there are entities, governments, terrorist groups or cult followers, whatever you want to call them, that have enough of an inferiority/superiority complex to want to see us destroyed simply because we exist. Withdrawing from the world won’t change their attitudes, regardless of what Paul says. To even think that is delusional, or psychotic at worst.
Paul draws his support from some of the most malignant elements of society. His followers, the “Paulbots” are devoted and dedicated to the point that they spam message boards, online polls, and make open threats to those who speak against Paul…basically, they act like Democrats.
I know that my comments will draw fire from some passing Paulitic, but I can defend myself quite adequately, and if they want to silence those who see through Ron Paul and his dementia, then they’ll have to try to silence several million people…and that they won’t be able to do.
November 15th, 2007 at 1:09 pm
Does anyone else feel that this is the ultimate funny money scam? Take $20 million in cash orders, then have the goods disappear!
November 15th, 2007 at 1:22 pm
“Does anyone else feel that this is the ultimate funny money scam? Take $20 million in cash orders, then have the goods disappear!”
That is not an implausible scenario.
After all, the lunatic (and pathological liar) Rivero lives in Kailua, Hawaii.
Which is kind of nice for someone who has never held a real job, and who has spent the last dozen years regurgitating rabid anti-American agit-prop on the internet.
November 15th, 2007 at 1:53 pm
I have ordered and received liberty dollars many times. The us treasury has said that the dollars are not counterfeit. If this is true, this is a theft by the government. As for the anti-ron paul guys… We have a big tent, we do not discriminate against any Americans, regardless of their views, even yours. Ron Paul for president 2008.
November 15th, 2007 at 1:57 pm
Hillary Clinton and George Soros thank you for your support, Treber.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:01 pm
I’m just curious about the reasoning behind the raid. I don’t see where the harm is if some weirdos want to spend their Federal Reserve Notes on Silver or Gold money that they can’t deposit in a bank. Pointless maybe, but not illegal.
Paul has distanced himself from the “truthers” and conspiracy groups, as far as I have seen. He has said that he doesn’t support their views, but (like any candidate) he is obliged to accept their vote.
Also, doesn’t the Constitution authorize the use of Silver and Gold money?
Cheers!
November 15th, 2007 at 2:13 pm
A little something additonal about Ron Paul’s supporters from The American Thinker.
http://www.americanthinker.com.....n_pau.html
November 15th, 2007 at 2:55 pm
Excuse me for pointing this out to those of you who are unaware, but private currencies are not illegal. They are simply not good for the payment of taxes, are not coins, are not money, and are not legal tender. This particular private currency is backed by metals (most of it in the form of actual metal medallions, only about 5% is in digital or paper form backed by metal held in a private warehouse). It is simply a bartering chip.
If you don’t believe me take it from Andrew Williams, a spokesman for the Federal Reserve in Washington, D.C.:
“There is no law that says goods and services must be paid for with Federal Reserve notes. Parties entering into a transaction can establish any medium of exchange that is agreed upon.”
Or read the words of Claudia Dickens, spokeswoman for the U.S. Treasury Department’s Bureau of Engraving and Printing
“There’s nothing illegal about this,” Dickens said after the Treasury Department’s legal team reviewed the currency. “As long as it doesn’t say ‘legal tender’ there’s nothing wrong with it.”
Duh! I don’t have to pay my friend in Federal Reserve Notes to give me a ride somewhere in his automobile, I can trade him a piece of silver or anything else he is willing to accept and there is no law that makes that illegal. Any such law would be ridiculous, does anyone here really believe that bartering should be (or is) illegal?
In fact there are many alternative currencies in use throughout the nation most of which are not backed by metals, and they are not illegal either. Look it up for yourself http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_currency.
Even according to the http://www.usmint.gov/pressroo.....amp;id=710
it is only illegal to be used as money. No law says that it is illegal to barter for goods and services in exchange for a privately minted metallic medallion, only that such medallions are not official state coined money, not legal tender, and not good for taxes.
As far as the Constitution goes, this is what it says, The Congress shall have the power
“To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures”
The only time the words gold and silver appear in the document are in regards to limitations on State governments.
“No state shall make any thing but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts”
Anyway I hope this helps people understand why bartering for goods and services with a metallic medallion is not illegal.
November 15th, 2007 at 3:07 pm
“Excuse me for pointing this out to those of you who are unaware, but private currencies are not illegal. They are simply not good for the payment of taxes, are not coins, are not money, and are not legal tender. This particular private currency is backed by metals (most of it in the form of actual metal medallions, only about 5% is in digital or paper form backed by metal held in a private warehouse). It is simply a bartering chip.”
I haven’t seen anyone suggest otherwise.
And I personally am leaning to the suggestion that the story is phony and that the folks behind this are trying to skip out on the “backing with metal” part.
November 15th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
You must not have read the first words of the first commenter who said:
“Other than fun money or collecting - I thought that this stuff was illegal.”
I have trouble with your suggestion that this is a scam. First of all it’s been around for almost 10 years and
it is the second most commonly traded currency in the country, so this is not something new and if it were a scam people would certainly have stopped purchasing from them long ago. Furthermore a commenter above noted that they have purchased and received liberty dollars many times (of course I have no way to verify this but it is another piece of interesting anecdotal evidence). Secondly if the folks are trying to skip out on the “backing with metal part” why would they make 95% of the currency in medallions out of the actual metal?
I realize this story has yet to be verified, and while I don’t assume it to be true, it is consistent with events that have taken place in the past, such as the confiscation of property of a lawful gun parts business that took pace last year. http://www.billingsgazette.net.....n-guns.txt
November 15th, 2007 at 3:42 pm
Ron Paul is on the Hildebeast’s payroll. She wants him to be Ross Perot two. The only way a clinton has ever one was because of a Ross Perot. Ron Paul is a nazi, a 9/11 truther and scumbag terrorist appeaser.
November 15th, 2007 at 3:47 pm
I think it behooves anyone, no matter how much they hate this country and wish to destroy it, to think twice before investing in anything invented by someone who calls himself Bernard von NotHaus — pronounced “nut house.”
Actually, on second thought, knock yourselves out.
November 15th, 2007 at 3:50 pm
In any case, it is looking more and more like this story is just some kind of weird hallucination (or worse) from the mind of the aforementioned NotHaus.
From the local Evansville Courier & Press:
So far there have been no other media reports.
November 15th, 2007 at 3:56 pm
Also I find it interesting that the url to this story says, fbi-raids-crackpot-ron-paul-dollar-scam.
Are you implying that making medallions out of precious metals and using them to barter for goods and services is a “crackpot Ron Paul dollar scam”?
What information do you have that this is in fact a scam?
Even the US Mint has not claimed this to be a scam they simply say that the metal medallions are not legal tender and that it is illegal to represent them as such.
Also noting that this started in 1998, how could this scam survive for so long and become the second most traded currency in the nation?
In addition SG, why did you make this comment:
“Hillary Clinton and George Soros thank you for your support, Treber.”
Given the fact that Ron Paul is the only anti-war Republican candidate and at least 65% of the population wants to end the war, what makes you think any other Republican would fare better than him against Hillary in the fall?
November 15th, 2007 at 3:59 pm
I don’t mean to go much further down this rabbit hole, but here is what the US Mint has to say about this charade:
Baron Von Nuthouse filed suit against the US Government over this warning, back in March.
Consequently, the demand for his ersatz currency has fallen to $3 million from the $20 million that was produced last year, according to this report from last month:
Passing the buck: Printer pushing Ron Paul dollar - InvestmentNews
http://www.investmentnews.com/.....90309/1017
Which makes the timing of this supposed “raid” all the more suspicious.
November 15th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
Jeez, the Paulbots are sure out in force now. Crikey!
Apologies young Paulian Jedi’s but I beg to differ with your conclusions. It also appears the Dept. of the Treasury has changed it’s stance with regards to the “Liberty Dollars” from NORFED Inc.
The links and quotes provided by Paulbot supporters are from 2006 or earlier and are now, it seems, irrelevant.
And the next things out of your mouths will be, “It’s all Bush’s fault, him and his evil, Cheneyesque / Rovian cabal of neocons!!”. I have heard it all before.
November 15th, 2007 at 4:04 pm
particularly when she and the other democratic frontrunners (obama and edwards), have said they cannot commit to being out of Iraq by 2013
November 15th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
I actually linked to the Mint’s publication already if you hadn’t noticed and it clearly states that it is only illegal if offered as legal tender, current money, i.e. government issued money:
“utter or pass, or attempt to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver intended for use as current money”
Do I have to repeat myself or will you never understand that bartering for goods and services with metallic medallions is not illegal?
November 15th, 2007 at 4:11 pm
Damn it SG, you have mad keyboard skilz!! Beat me to the punch by 3 minutes!!
But hey, GMTA, right? ;o)
November 15th, 2007 at 4:17 pm
“I actually linked to the Mint’s publication already if you hadn’t noticed”
And by “linked” you mean mentioned in passing.
And, no, nobody is fooled by what you are claiming. Why did NutHouse sue the Mint, if he wasn’t offended by what they posted?
It’s clear to anyone who isn’t retarded or an America-hater (which is so often one and the same thing) that this was an attempt to develop an alternative currency and to fool the weak-minded and other lunatics.
I’m sorry if you got caught in the scam yourself, Gnayler.
Actually, I’m kidding, I wouldn’t be sorry at all. People who fall for these cons deserve whatever they get — or don’t get.
November 15th, 2007 at 4:24 pm
BTW, our interlocutor here appears to be a fulltime activist for Ron Paul:
Gnayler “ron paul” - Google Search
http://www.google.com/search?q.....8;filter=0
Check out his comments to the YouTube videos, especially.
November 15th, 2007 at 4:41 pm
This is the Age of Confusion, Ruled By Psyops. I’m going to back well away from this “report” until the dust settles and see if this isn’t some sort of craziness writ large. I always admired Ron Paul as a principled gentlemen regarding the Constitution, particularly the illegality of the Federal Reserve and our fiat currency. Its hard for me to imagine he actively courts the lunatic Truther fringe, but he has and that’s a giant sucking noise I hear where his reputation once stood. However … let’s not forget that the surest way to defeat an enemy is to glom onto him with all the wrong people. I seriously doubt anyone here has any idea how vast the Clinton’s operation really is .. global, in fact … and how many years they’ve been strategizing their moves to get her in office this election cycle. You simply don’t have the imagination to grasp the depth of resources, the extraordinary number of people, the stupendous spiderweb of networks and the mind-numbing battle planning that’s been going on for more than two decades. Ron Paul is either a threat to the Planned Presidency, or, he’s being used to split the vote like Perot was. In either case, I’d back away from this report.
November 15th, 2007 at 4:43 pm
And of course Gnayler is also a “truther”:
Digg - Beck: 9/11 Truthers “Insane”, “Dangerous Anarchists”
http://digg.com/political_opin.....Anarchists
November 15th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
Man what is it with these people that an opinion (I prefaced it with - I thought) is hounded (and attributed to all) with such rabid insanity. Oh yeah, it is the rabid insanity.
Ron Paul is just like Hillary with the slick duplicitous skirting and skating around issues. That he voted against the Patriot Act and against the Iraq War - he won’t ever get my vote. That his supporters come off as sounding crazy - does not help him at all.
I support less government - but anyone who starts things out with - ‘I never automatically trust anything the government does’ - can not be grounded in honesty or reality. There is no digging oneself out of such a bad start, especially when one is aspiring to be the POTUS.
November 15th, 2007 at 5:09 pm
“Bernard von NotHaus, the fiery monetary architect of the Liberty Dollar,…”
I laughed at this. What qualifications do you need to become a “monetary architect?” Is there a class offered at the local community college?
I also think they’re called “Liberty Dollars” because the people that buy them are willing to sell their freedoms for the perceived “peace” that comes after surrender.
November 15th, 2007 at 5:27 pm
“I always admired Ron Paul as a principled gentlemen regarding the Constitution,…………….” I agree GetBackJack …………………….” Its hard for me to imagine he actively courts the lunatic Truther fringe” ……. this is where he lost my respect.
Ron Paul, Alex Jones and the 9/11 truthers are all being financed by Soros money these days. ( I guess when some people get a little national popularity, power and greed kick in and they no longer care where the money comes from! ) Sad but true, they’ve all become hypocrites.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:04 pm
“Check out his comments to the YouTube videos, especially.”
Hmmmmmm, hang on, hang on.
Let me get the wig on……got it, now the make-up, check. Okay, here we go…
Just leave him ALONE! Ron Paul is a god. Cindy Shehag did him–TWICE. He’ll save the universe.
Boo Hoo, sniff. Just stop, leave him alone…
November 16th, 2007 at 10:54 am
“Ron Paul is a nazi, a 9/11 truther and scumbag terrorist appeaser.”
“Hillary Clinton and George Soros thank you for your support, Treber”
“And of course Gnayler is also a “truther”:”
“Digg - Beck: 9/11 Truthers “Insane”, “Dangerous Anarchists” ”
“Ron Paul, Alex Jones and the 9/11 truthers are all being financed by Soros money these days.”
“Hmmmmmm, hang on, hang on.
Let me get the wig on……got it, now the make-up, check. Okay, here we go…
Just leave him ALONE! Ron Paul is a god. Cindy Shehag did him–TWICE. He’ll save the universe.
Boo Hoo, sniff. Just stop, leave him alone…”
Generally speaking I agree with the posts at this site, especially those that reference the Clinton clan. It is nice to see factually based news critiques.
However, the above quoted ad hominem attacks do little to forward any debate. I am a Ron Paul supporter and would welcome a factual debate with any of you that have issue with any of his positions. Understand, I do not blindly agree with every one of his positions, and would be willing to admit I am wrong, if presented with substantiated evidence that contradicts any of my opinions. Also, in fairness to the debate, I would like you to state the name of the candidate you support so that we can compare and contrast the candidates positions and voting records, and possibly even come to an agreement.
November 16th, 2007 at 8:53 pm
I do not believe factual debate is possible with some.
Factual debate involves logical, rather than emotional thought.
Understanding the economical consequences of endless wars, or the history behind the fall of every empire since the dawn of man requires education.
It’s just lost on a great deal of people.
November 16th, 2007 at 9:19 pm
*the history behind the fall of every empire since the dawn of man requires education.*
Funny, Liberalism, AKA decadence, And socialism, AKA I’m gonna vote for more free stuff and sit on my lazy ass. Has never brought down empires?
No rational person loves war, And no rational person can deny evil and the need to fight it.
That just seems to be lost on a great deal of people.
*Factual debate involves logical, rather than emotional thought.*
I have to agree, But entering a debate by calling any one that does not share your opinion uneducated is hardly logical, But seeks to goad the opposition into surrender through making them feel inferior.
You have not come to debate, Only to try to belittle, And on that you have failed miserably.
November 16th, 2007 at 10:41 pm
Vendain, you are still a young man:
MySpace.com - Josh is for Ron Paul - 28 - Male - SUFFOLK, VIRGINIA - http://www.myspace.com/vendain
http://profile.myspace.com/ind.....id=8428149
You should study more history. Especially note how the worst war in the history of mankind was brought about because too many pacifists hoped Hitler and Nazism would just go away.
Ron Paul is an ignoramus about history and especially about the Constitution.
Most of the wars the US has fought have been “undeclared” by his definition. And no one — not even Thomas Jefferson (who fought the Barbary Pirate Muslims without a declaration of war), believed that “marques and reprisals” could accomplish anything.
Ron Paul is being used as a Judas goat by the DNC. Don’t be suckered down that path. You will kick yourself for the rest of your life.
November 16th, 2007 at 10:47 pm
By the way, it is seeming more likely that the raid did actually occur. At least someone has come up with what they claim is a copy of the affidavit:
In Ron Paul Coins, Federal Agents Don’t Trust | The Trail | washingtonpost.com
http://blog.washingtonpost.com.....id=topnews
November 16th, 2007 at 10:58 pm
SG, congratulations on your Google-ing ability.
While we’re researching history, let’s look at how the root causes of World War II were based on the horrible economic conditions brought on Germany in accordance to the Treaty of Versailles. The Germans were starved for a sense of national pride which was supplied by Adolf Hitler.
Of course, World War I was unnecessary in and of itself, and is a prime example of what happens when countries entangle themselves with unnecessary treaties.
In addition: I highly doubt the DNC benefits very much from a Ron Paul nomination. Nearly all supporters I personally know were formerly democrats. He’ll be harder to slander and demean than any of the other Republican front-runners.
November 16th, 2007 at 11:01 pm
Yes, the raid happened:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg8P9dNXTEg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmNIdbl8cyk
November 16th, 2007 at 11:08 pm
“While we’re researching history, let’s look at how the root causes of World War II were based on the horrible economic conditions brought on Germany in accordance to the Treaty of Versailles. The Germans were starved for a sense of national pride which was supplied by Adolf Hitler.”
The ultimate cause of WWII was that Germany believed that (as a now newly united country) it should hold hegemony on the continent of Europe. The French and English disagreed.
“Of course, World War I was unnecessary in and of itself, and is a prime example of what happens when countries entangle themselves with unnecessary treaties.”
See above. It is the same answer. In fact, WWII was just an extension of WWI and the Franco-Prussian War.
As for unfair treaties, take a gander at some of the treaties the Germans imposed after the FP War (The Treaty of Frankfurt) and those they imposed in WWI (Treaty of Brest-Litovsk), and what they would have imposed if they has been victorious against the allies in either of the latter two wars.
November 16th, 2007 at 11:11 pm
“Funny, Liberalism, AKA decadence, And socialism, AKA I’m gonna vote for more free stuff and sit on my lazy ass. Has never brought down empires?
No rational person loves war, And no rational person can deny evil and the need to fight it.”
I do not disagree. Liberalism and socialism are huge contributors. I despise socialism. But I believe in individualism and freedom above everything else.
Evil is going to exist in the world, no matter how many murderous dictators we throw out of power.
“I have to agree, But entering a debate by calling any one that does not share your opinion uneducated is hardly logical, But seeks to goad the opposition into surrender through making them feel inferior.
You have not come to debate, Only to try to belittle, And on that you have failed miserably.”
Fair enough. I won’t make excuses. I’m frustrated with the mindset of people like my warmongering father who would rather belittle me for my choices of political candidates, than to understand why I’ve chosen who I have.
November 16th, 2007 at 11:28 pm
Just for the record Vendain, I’m not your father but from what you have posted, probably close to him in our thinking. I take it you believe that evil, real evil in the form of Islam and the Islamist that want to destroy us should just be ignored and it will go away. Or you may want to excuse their behavior by saying that post WWII treaties and alliances have caused them to hate us, thereby justifying the murder and terror they have wrought on the world over the last 35 years or so.
Well young man, you are a fool to think such thoughts. The Ron Pauls, and by extension you, of the world are nothing more than Ostriches with their heads firmly implanted in the sands of unreality. We cannot simply ignore these murderous bastards. We cannot bribe them into leaving us alone. And we cannot join in their cult of death that they refer to as religion and hope our fate would be anything buy complete and utter dominance by them.
You have probably been firmly ensconced in a relatively safe environment for most, if not all of your life, never having to confront the face of evil face on. Many of us here have confronted evil face on and have fought it in the real world battlefield. Not the battlefield of video games. We know the consequences of a possible Ron Paul presidency. We know America could probably not survive it. By the way, I’m not here to debate you or negotiate your position. As far as I’m concerned, there is no room for debate and even less than none for negotiation.
Not to mention, the man is loony nut.
November 16th, 2007 at 11:30 pm
‘You have not come to debate, Only to try to belittle’
Says the guy who asked for a debate and opens with ‘SG, congratulations on your Google-ing ability.’
POT
KETTLE
BLACK
November 17th, 2007 at 12:11 pm
UM, Navy, He was quoting me!
November 17th, 2007 at 5:04 pm
navycopjoe - actually I was the one that requested the debate.
I support Ron Paul. I support most of his positions.
It appears from the above posts that the issue most at this site have with Dr. Paul is his position on the Iraq war. Well let’s start there then.
Let me say first that I agree that the koran teachings are a definate threat to our national sovereignty. That Islam is spread by means of violence and force has been a fact from its inception. We need to meet that force with strength and force.
Do I support attempts to make peace with Islam. No, it is a historical fact that the koran teaches Islamists to accept a treaty only when/while it is beneficial to Islam, it WILL be broken when it is advantageous to Islam, once they have rebuit their forces.
So, why would I support a candidate that wants to pull out?
First, due in part to the bs political climate in this country, I do not believe we are trying to win this war with the same determination as we had in WW2. I have a son that recently returned from Iraq, and I know that while we could easily take over the country and win the war, we are doing more of a policing effort now. We stopped agressively fighting the war.
Second, it appears that our intentions are to stay there for many, many years, and attempt to make Iraq democratic allies. This will NOT work. (see above for one reason). Also, we should not want a democracy over there anyway. We should be trying to establish liberty, not democracy. I mean who wants a democratically elected Saddam? And who really thinks that a different type of person would get elected? Democracy in Iraq = more allies for Iran.
Third, this war is not being fought only in Iraq. We need to secure our borders, deny amnesty to all illegals, and strengthen and support the Judeo-Christian values this country was founded upon. We should not have the Federal government going into Georgia and removing the 10 commandments from a courthouse because it might offend someone. The federal government should not have that authority. Take a look at what is happening in Europe. Look at the courts that have quoted and accepted sharia law in their decisions. Look at the loss of sovereignty due to lax immigration laws and loss of national pride and identity. Dr. Paul will at least attempt to restore sovereignty and liberty to the people of this country. It can not be done by centralizing power in a massive central government.
I have much more to say, but I am not attempting to write a novel … yet.
I welcome open debate, but again ask that if you do not support Dr. Paul, please state the candidate you support so that we may compare the relative strengths and weaknesses of each candidate. Oh, and its ok with me if you think they all suck.
November 17th, 2007 at 5:28 pm
“Second, it appears that our intentions are to stay there for many, many years, and attempt to make Iraq democratic allies. This will NOT work. (see above for one reason). Also, we should not want a democracy over there anyway. We should be trying to establish liberty, not democracy. I mean who wants a democratically elected Saddam? And who really thinks that a different type of person would get elected? Democracy in Iraq = more allies for Iran.”
Of course the same thing — and worse — was said about attempts to instill democrat governments in Germany and Japan after WWII.
The problem is that there is no other long term solution. They have to change their ways. And we simply can’t kill them all.
“Third, this war is not being fought only in Iraq. We need to secure our borders, deny amnesty to all illegals, and strengthen and support the Judeo-Christian values this country was founded upon. We should not have the Federal government going into Georgia and removing the 10 commandments from a courthouse because it might offend someone.”
Are you sure you know who Ron Paul is? Are you unaware that he is in truth a Libertarian, and in fact he has run for the Presidency on the Libertarian ticket?
Take some time and check out the Libertarian platform:
Official Website of the Libertarian National Committee
http://www.lp.org/issues/platf.....ml#sexgend
The LP is (and don’t let them kid you otherwise) for open borders, doing away with the military, legalizing all drugs and prostitution and all forms of abortion, homosexual marriage, as well as for giving back much of the country to the Indians.
That is why it is hard to take anyone who supports Ron Paul seriously.
Not to mention the prospect of seeing people being once again duped into throwing away their vote on a meaningless gesture and thereby giving the Presidency to a Clinton.
November 17th, 2007 at 6:01 pm
Thank you SG.
Germany/Japan - The difference here is, I believe, that the foundations of their culture (Germany/Japan) allow for a more reasoned approach to politics. Islam does not even accept science since any acceptance of physical “laws” would imply that Allah could not violate those laws, thereby restricting the powers of Allah, and we all know that Allah is all powerful, therefore scientific absolutes are an affront to Allah. You are right - we can’t kill them all - they have to change their ways. But will they, and how can we encourage them to do that. The constitution that we helped them impliment includes sharia law. Their culture does not recognize the distictions between church and state - their church is the state - and that is what needs to be changed. I hanestly believe that the American people are too pc to even discuss something so radical as changing another societies religeous beliefs.
Yes, I am well aware of Dr. Paul formerly being a Libertarian. However based on his voting record, I do not believe that he is for open borders. See: http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul314.html and also:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul314.html Further, I am, and have been for many years, a Republican. I hope you do not believe that I would support John McCain’s immigration bill jsut because he is a Republican. Nor would you be correct in asserting that I agree with the defecit spending that was going on when the Republicians controled the congress. Point being - party affiliation does not necessarily imply that a person supports all the positions of that party.
As to the throw away vote - we are talking now about the primary. A vote for Ron Paul would not impact anything on the Clinton/Obama side. If he were running as a third party candidate, I would agree with your point. But if he wins the primary, and is the Republican representative, his anti war stance is very likely to take voters away from Clinton, not help her. Personally I think that a 2nd Clinton President would be the worst possible scenario for this country.
November 17th, 2007 at 6:33 pm
SG
I had intended that the following be the second URL referenced in the above response. My mistake.
http://www.vote-smart.org/voti.....amp;go.y=9
November 17th, 2007 at 9:17 pm
“please state the candidate you support so that we may compare the relative strengths and weaknesses of each candidate. Oh, and its ok with me if you think they all suck.”
Okay jbeaty, I’m game. Duncan Hunter is the Candidate of my choice, The news media doesn’t give him the time of day. His platform envelopes of of the issues that I am concerned about:
Border Security……………………………………….check
Immigration…………………………………………….. check
Independent America, No Globalism…..check
Strong American Military………………………. check
War on Terrorism………………………………….. check
No Socialism…………………………………………. check
No North American Union……………………. check
No Socialzed Medicine……………………….. check
Bring back Manufacturing to USA………..check
Alternative Energy - entrepreneurs not Gov. run………… check
Supports the Fair Tax………………………………. check
No Nucleur Iran………………………………………check
Loves God…………………………………………….. check
No Gun Control……………………………………….check
Duncan Hunter is the complete package as far as I am concerned. Plus, he’s very honest and trustworthy and he also reminds me a lot of my Dad. (mannerisms, style of speaking, etc.)
If Duncan Hunter doesn’t make it past the Presidential Primaries, (I am a cock-eyed optimist), I reckon I will vote for the lesser of two evils. (So to speak)
That’s my opinion…..and that and two bucks would probably only buy you a cup of coffee.
(Oh yeah, and Ron Paul coin incident…….the mistake was made when the ad for the coins suggested using them for currency and to circulate them. That’s a BIG no-no.)
November 17th, 2007 at 9:30 pm
Good post TPS. I agree with you but also realize it won’t happen for Hunter, at least this time around. I also believe that of the candidates that have a chance of getting the nomination, Giuliani, Romney, Thompson or McCain that Giuliani is probably the only one with a chance at beating Billary head to head. Just my opinion, and here in California these days I’ve found you need about $2.50 for that cup of coffee…..:-).
The only exception I have with your check list is the “Loves God”. I don’t really care if he does or not, and we really have no way of knowing that. I do think he has demonstrated his “Love of America” through his past military service( Viet Nam Vet) and his support of his son (an OIF Vet) who has also served, so I would substitute your trait with mine.
November 17th, 2007 at 10:58 pm
I am also on the Hunter bandwagon but he just doesn’t have the name recognition yet. He should be the running mate first then the big dog.
“here in California these days I’ve found you need about $2.50 for that cup of coffee”
Wait till you get here, you’ll need more than that.
BTW, speaking of God, Godzilla vs Space Godzilla just cost me too many brain cells (how in the hell could I watch marathons growing up)
November 17th, 2007 at 11:04 pm
Oops NCJ….forgot to tell you HI is cancelled until after the new year. Mrs. WI got Fresno for all the holidays instead. Not too bad since I’m getting paid very well for it and it’s close to hometown for me. Kind of like being a Snowbird with benefits…..lol.
November 17th, 2007 at 11:19 pm
That’s cool, the beer can wait on us.
In the meantime, I’ll be working on my tan waiting for Santa to arrive on a surfboard (yes kiddies, in Hawaii he comes on a surfboard)
Also, some moth….cker stole my bobblehead mohammed, how am I supposed to provide quality service without a bobblehead?!!
November 17th, 2007 at 11:54 pm
‘The only exception I have with your check list is the “Loves God”.
Hey WI :-)
More Correctly, Loves God/America/Constitution. Just my view. I don’t care what religion or non religion a fellow American is as long as they love this great Country and want to uphold the Constitution that our Forefathers fought and died for! I’m not here on this Earth to judge anyone’s faith. A person’s believe system is their own prerogrative.
I guess you could say that I’m a live and let live, cockeyed optimist troll. I wish Duncan Hunter had better name recognition as I agree with you WI, I also believe he could whip Schillery’s ……. well, you get the picture.
November 18th, 2007 at 1:36 am
jbeaty; you have points I agree with, And I think a good many posters on the site.
I did think Vendain was more than a little degrading in his first post, But he did seem to be open to dialog, Well up until he posted about Steve’s Googe-ing ability.
Maybe he just needs a few new perspectives on world events other than his fathers, I never like an opinion forced on me, So maybe he feels a bit of rebellion, We shall see.
Their does seem some confusion on my post, So when I said: * You have not come to debate, Only to try to belittle.*
It was never aimed at you, And Navy may have missed my post, Things like that happen.
But now if confusion is cleared up if ever there was any, We can move along to more important issues.
At this point I feel the candidates are a bunch of sock puppets, Not just one, But every damn one.
I too am close to the point of saying bring our troops home, Not because I think they are failing, But because I am tired of seeing their hands tied behind their backs by a bunch of bureaucrats.
I cant in good faith support Ron Paul because, Well simply put, I think he is a nut case.
I think Hillary is a power hungry socialist and on par with Chavez.
Giuliani, If 9-11 never happened, No one would have ever heard of him outside of New York.
Regardless, I feel he is a sheep in wolfs clothing.
Good old Fred, I like some of the things he says, But I doubt he is the next Reagan.
Obama, Oh boy, The last thing I want to even get close to the White House is some jerk with muslim ties.
I guess my point is that I am not looking for a POTUS that just talks the talk.
I want one that does what is right, Not one that tells me what I want to hear.
All of the upcoming offerings are simply approaching the most powerful job in the world likes its a popularity contest, And the American public treats it like an American Idol competition.
And good percentage of the American public vote simply to get freebies, And are simply to stupid or self absorbed to understand or care that nothing is ever free.
November 18th, 2007 at 10:18 am
Rather see Tancredo or Hunter get it myself, but I think Fred Thompson is the most electable candidate that comes closest to conservatism.
He’s no Reagan, but he’s what we got.
November 18th, 2007 at 11:04 am
texaspsue:
Good post. I agree that Duncan Hunter is one of the best candidates, and one that I would be comfortable voting for. He certainly should be polling above Rudy Mc Romney and Fred. Unfortunately the mainstream media, and most conservative media give him little play, which translates into very little name recognition and since too many Americans do too little research into the issues and the people that they are voting for, it is not likely he will move up much in the polls. If Dr. Paul were not running I would definately support Duncan Hunter.
However, there are two areas that I prefer the positions of Ron Paul over Duncan Hunter:
1) Get rid of the IRS - the flat tax would be less preferable to me. I think we can all agree that the Federal Government wastes far too much of our hard earned money. The only way to get them to stop spending it is to either elect fiscally responsible representatives - and there are damned few of them - or stop sending them money.
2) Get rid of the Department of Education. It is my opinion that the government does few things well, and based on what I have seen in the school system (My wife and I are now homeschooling our children) the liberal agenda pushed for by the Federal Government is abhorant. Without a strong movement to limit the size and authority of the feds, I would not doubt that the control described in the following article will become the norm in the US also:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new.....data26.xml
I feel it is imperative that we get control of our kids returned to local communities and more importantly the parents. Get the government out, especially the feds. They do not have the best interests of the children at heart. Garbage like the following is happening far too often already: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,138802,00.html There is no way anyone is going to convince me it was the parents idea to have a cross dressing day for the kids.
Dez: sock puppets - yes, most of them are, surely not the best and the brightest this country has to offer.
November 18th, 2007 at 1:26 pm
“…but I think Fred Thompson is the most electable candidate that comes closest to conservatism.”
I guess that could be true…..if he ever decides to start campaigning. Where the hell is he? Haven’t seen nor heard of him in a couple of weeks now. If he thinks he can get elected just by showing up occasionally on a Sunday morning talk show or at the debates, which aren’t watched by very many people to begin with, he’s just wrong. That was the knock against him to begin with…..lazy. He hasn’t shown me anything to convince me he isn’t. Nope…..Fred is toast. He should go back to his Hollywierd lifestyle and leave the race to those who want to work for it.
November 19th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
“the flat tax would be less preferable to me….”
jbeaty, I was talking about the Fair Tax not the flat tax…. http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer They are two different plans.