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Joe Wilson Shout Heard Around The World

From Mr. Obama’s speech to the joint session of Congress, via YouTube:

Obama Heckled by GOP During Speech to Congress

[AP caption:] The nastiness of August reached from the town halls into the Capitol as President Barack Obama spoke about his health care plan. South Carolina Republican Rep. Joe Wilson shouted "You lie!" after Obama talked about illegal immigrants.

The AP never stops, do they?

Rep. Joe Wilson (R-SC) shouts "You Lie" as U.S. President Barack Obama addresses a joint session of the U.S. Congress at the U.S. Capitol September 9, 2009 in Washington, DC.

Still, who would have thought we’d be able to respect someone named Joe Wilson ever again?

This article was posted by Steve on Wednesday, September 9th, 2009. Comments are currently closed.

155 Responses to “Joe Wilson Shout Heard Around The World”

  1. neocon mom says:

    I’m currently listening to Bamster deliver the most fraudulent speech ever delivered by an American president. He’s really going for it.

    • proreason says:

      I don’t know how you can do it nm.

      After the first lie (in other words, as soon as he opens his mouth), i’m ready to punch out the tv set.

    • neocon mom says:

      Oh, my blood pressure is high, and I think I’m breaking out in hives, but I just had to see what the heck this guy was going to say that he hadn’t already in 111 speeches. I think I’ve seen it all now and can comfortably ignore the rest of his speeches over the next 3.5 years.

    • Petronius says:

      At one point –– when Nerobama stated that it was not true that “illegal immigrants” would be covered by his government plan –– someone on the Republican side yelled “Liar!” in response. For a few precious moments Pelosi and Biden were fit to be tied. Looking for the culprit, Pelosi’s head swiveled to her left so often she looked like a spectator at the U.S. Tennis Open.

      And when Nerobama accused the Republicans of partisanship, and of not offering positive solutions, many of the Republicans waved copies of the bills they had introduced into the House. On the whole –– apart from the two Sisters of Charity –– the Republican attitude appeared to be much stronger than what we have come to expect from them. Perhaps they will grow a backbone. Perhaps not.

      Apart from Nerobama’s stream of lies, the worst bit was the beginning … watching all of them, the smug Bolsheviks, with their ugly faces –– ugly despite the best efforts of hordes of plastic surgeons –– our Bolshevik conquerors, old and young, white and black, male and female, straight, queer, and transgendered, kissing and cuddling one another. Fortunately during the worst moments my mind re-focused on more pleasant things, such as the miracle of the bolt action rifle.

  2. Chuckk says:

    Obama should ask Mitt Romney how he got Obamacare through in Massachusetts.

    • retire05 says:

      Yeah, nothing like doubling down on a bad system. The Massachusetts plan is going broke and services are being cut.

  3. Carol says:

    I want to know how to contact Joe Wilson so I can congratulate him! I tried finding him at the South Carolina House of Representatives but the site’s crashed. Joe Wilson – I’m Proud Of You! You have said what so many of us know – Obama lies!

    • Rusty Shackleford says:

      I just sent him an e-mail thanking him…and telling him to keep fighting the good fight.

      Just google his name and you can scroll down to a link that has “contact Joe Wilson”. I tried going through his home page but it’s probably inundated with overflow right now.

      I didn’t listen to the speech…I never do. He is the lying liar who lies and as Rush said today…this is do or die for this presidency. He has slapped everyone he can think of in the face early on and made a fool of himself and of the American people.

      I’m hoping and praying he’s a lame duck for the rest of his term and if the blacks want to call me a racist, that’s fine. I know the truth…and every time I run into a black who thinks they know the facts, they find themselves having a battle of wits and they come up unarmed.

      Ultimately, it ends up with them admitting they are for a socialistic government, at which time I tell them to move to Cuba.

    • Carol says:

      I keep trying his website but it’s “down for maintenance” – my guess is TONS of people appreciate what Joe Wilson did and they are all trying to email him now!

  4. Rusty Shackleford says:

    Surprisingly, it appears the AP has been reading the conservative blogs…and decided to publish this:

    FACT CHECK: Obama uses iffy math on deficit pledge

    By CALVIN WOODWARD and ERICA WERNER, Associated Press Writers Calvin Woodward And Erica Werner, Associated Press Writers – 7 mins ago

    WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama used only-in-Washington accounting Wednesday when he promised to overhaul the nation’s health care system without adding “one dime” to the deficit. By conventional arithmetic, Democratic plans would drive up the deficit by billions of dollars.

    The president’s speech to Congress contained a variety of oversimplifications and omissions in laying out what he wants to do about health insurance.

    A look at some of Obama’s claims and how they square with the facts or the fuller story:

    OBAMA: “I will not sign a plan that adds one dime to our deficits either now or in the future. Period.”

    THE FACTS: Though there’s no final plan yet, the White House and congressional Democrats already have shown they’re ready to skirt the no-new-deficits pledge.

    House Democrats offered a bill that the Congressional Budget Office said would add $220 billion to the deficit over 10 years. But Democrats and Obama administration officials claimed the bill actually was deficit-neutral. They said they simply didn’t have to count $245 billion of it — the cost of adjusting Medicare reimbursement rates so physicians don’t face big annual pay cuts.

    Their reasoning was that they already had decided to exempt this “doc fix” from congressional rules that require new programs to be paid for. In other words, it doesn’t have to be paid for because they decided it doesn’t have to be paid for.

    Rest of item: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090910/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_health_care_fact_check

    —-I read it and I read it again because I was surprised the AP published it. It’ll probably be pulled.

    • Rusty Shackleford says:

      But to be fair, they also published this:

      Obama: Time for ‘bickering’ is over on health care

      y DAVID ESPO, AP Special Correspondent David Espo, Ap Special Correspondent – 13 mins ago

      WASHINGTON – Shaking off a summer of setbacks, President Barack Obama summoned Congress to enact sweeping health care legislation Wednesday night, declaring the “time for bickering is over” and the moment has arrived to protect millions who have unreliable insurance or no coverage at all.

      Obama said the changes he wants would cost about $900 billion over decade, “less than we have spent on the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, and less than the tax cuts for the wealthiest few Americans” passed during the Bush administration.

      In a televised speech to a joint session of Congress, Obama spoke in favor of a provision for the federal government to sell insurance in competition with private industry. But in a remark certain to displease liberals, he did not insist on it, and said he was open to other alternatives that create choices for consumers.

      Obama said he remains ready to listen to all ideas but added in a clear reference to Republicans, “I will not waste time with those who have made the calculation that it’s better politics to kill this plan than to improve it.”

      —-It also talks about Wilson’s “unusual” outburst.

      Rest of story: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090910/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_health_care_overhaul

      —–I think that we’re finally seeing results from a public that has made itself known and shocked the libs and scared the crap out of them. Hitlery tried this in the 90’s and it was tried before that…

      —–Blammos says he wants to be the last president to bring up healthcare. Finally, something I can agree with him on.

    • proreason says:

      They can make any plan revenue neutral.

      All it takes is big enough cuts in Medicare.

      Senior citizens are a problem anyway. Many of them don’t worship Obamy to the level he deserves.

  5. sheehanjihad says:

    Not being shackled with the protocol of the position of a vaunted elected official, I will repeat what Joe Wilson yelled out when he heard something that is factually untrue. To wit….President Obama….you lie! Like a rug on the floor, you lie! Tonight’s “speech” reminded me so much of that campaign….and what a talker he is too! Smooth, charismatic, and telling the American people that they dont count, they are stupid, and there is no way there will be anything different in September than there was in July. That’s the beauty of Oblambo’s presentation. Rhetoric, staid professions of righteousness, all the while, he is giving the camera the finger. He didnt say anything of substance…he just guaranteed that his definition of bi-partisanship is inviting Republicans to sit down, shut up, and support whatever he demands of them. I wasnt impressed this time either.

  6. Steve says:

    From Roll Call:

    Wilson Apologizes for Shouting at Obama

    By Tory Newmyer
    Sept. 9, 2009

    Facing a swift, bipartisan backlash, Rep. Joe Wilson (R-S.C.) issued an apology Wednesday night for shouting “You lie!” at President Barack Obama in the midst of his address to a joint session of Congress…



    Still, no one can un-ring the bell.

    • Rusty Shackleford says:

      Did he make a democrat-style apology “If I offended anyone, I’m sorry” or a republican apology, “I’m very sorry ….sorry that you’re such an idiot”.

    • The Bell.. speaks truth.

      I went immediately and gave $20.. I tweeted that I did so, and I think some others did as well.

      Screw the backlash.. those wimps in congress are O-Whipped. He said it, and frankly its a done deal. It will be news for a week as the donations go to Joe.

    • Flession says:

      That link died on us, Steve.

      Also, here is his direct quote, as per Wikipedia:

      “This evening I let my emotions get the best of me when listening to the President’s remarks regarding the coverage of illegal immigrants in the health care bill. While I disagree with the President’s statement, my comments were inappropriate and regrettable. I extend sincere apologies to the President for this lack of civility.”

      Could be a turning point for the rest of the Joe Wilson’s out there. The name may yet be saved!

    • BillK says:

      So basically, as we’ve seen far too often of late, Wilson acted like a Republican.

      As we’ve seen Republicans act in recent years.

      Coming up next – he’ll promise to help Obama fight the “right wing smear campaigns.”

      Will any Democrat ever apologize for letting their “emotions get the best of me?”

      Au contraire, to the left it’s a badge of honor.

    • philipspace says:

      I would point out that the apology was for the lack of civility given the forum, and Wilson’s right. A congressman shouldn’t be shouting at the President of the United States during a speech, it is inappropriate. If those on the Left would never apologize were they in his shoes, then it shows a lack of class and integrity on their part.

      Wilson isn’t demonstrating himself as inferior by showing humility.

      Besides, he didn’t exactly retract the sentiment.

  7. crosspatch says:

    Is it just me or does Pelosi look like Michael Jackson in that picture?

  8. canary says:

    philipspace, I disagree that the Congressmen’s calling Obama a liar was inappropiate.
    Obama yelled to the entire world, that our representitives were lying about what the bill contains. Since, the media never gives conservatives any voice, or media time, conservatives representing America’s need to do what ever it takes to warn the public about that Obama is the one lying. Obama should be the one to apologize for lying.
    He should be impeached for such deception.

    • philipspace says:

      You misunderstand me. I think that what Wilson said is what we all thought, but shouting at the President during a congressional address is still wrong.

      Is he lying? Of course. But Wilson didn’t apologize for calling him a liar, he apologized for where and when he did it.

    • canary says:

      philipspace, Obama’s lying, name-calling, jokes, indoctrining our children at school, apologizing to every country, everything he has said to the globe is far worse, than one individual who felt something in his soul, that he needed to warn America. Something that told him to do the right thing, instead of Republican and Democratic leaders who tip-toe, walking on egg shells, trying to watch their p’s and q’s because they are cowards and can’t call an ace and ace. And there is just a mentality in some culture’s of people in this country, that bullying only stops, when they are stood up to. and Obama and his cronies are bullys, czar’s, union thugs, black panthers at the voting polls. By gosh, Obama’s pointing finger is demeaning and it’s not appropiate either. I wish he’d fall down Airforce 1’s steps and break his finger. Shame on me.

    • philipspace says:

      All true and all too familiar. I’m not arguing to this point, though I would point out that one does not exculpate the other.

      My argument was and is that Wilson’s apology is perfectly appropriate, given the existing circumstances, and does not detract from the action, since he’s not apologized for the sentiment, but rather where and when he expressed it.

      Calling the President a liar is also appropriate when he’s standing there lying to you and everybody else, sure, and on that you’ll get no argument from me. What Wilson did was pretty momentous to that point, and I think we all know just how he feels. More importantly, he put the subject square on the table so that not even msnbc could ignore it (though they were quick to quote factcheck.org on the precise wording of the bill so as to obfuscate the issue as much as possible).

      However, had Wilson not apologized for his action would have been portrayed as political grandstanding by the media (and may yet be), and/or the statement would have been dismissed as the rantings of a “right-wing polemic” (or however it would spin) instead of the clearly impassioned denunciation that it was.

  9. That arrogant, condescending snot dismissed us as “bickering”! Citizens coming out to town hall meetings were merely bickering with mighty Obama’s healthcare plan. Like we were school children complaining about homework. Now, now children it is good for you, it is who we are as Americans…

    It is who we are as American people. We give 10X as much as any country in the world. We just don’t believe that it is role of your government to take it from all of us – to give to your supporters. Just as you have with the stimulus bill.

    Marx corrected: “From each, according to what the government decides it needs, to each, what the government decides he should get.”

  10. 64dodger says:

    I download the speech into Microsoft Word and then told it to search for the number of times Obama said “I”. He said “I” 57 times in a 35 minute speech.

    It is all about Obama and nothing else.

  11. From the President:

    One American —

    I just finished laying out my plan for health reform at a joint session of Congress. Now, I’m writing directly to you because what happens next is critical — and I need your help.

    Change this big will not happen because I ask for it. It can only come when the nation demands it. Congress knows where I stand. Now they need to hear from you.

    Add your voice: Ask your representatives to support my plan for real health reform in 2009.

    The heart of my plan is simple: bring stability and security to Americans who already have health insurance, guarantee affordable coverage for those who don’t, and rein in the cost of health care.

    Tonight, I offered a specific plan for how to make it happen. I incorporated the best ideas from Democrats and Republicans to create a plan that’s bold, practical, and represents the broad consensus of the American people.

    We’ve come closer to real health reform in the last few months than we have in the last 60 years. But those who profit from the status quo — and those who put partisan advantage above all else — will fight us every inch of the way.

    We do not seek that fight, but we will not shrink from it. The stakes are too high to let scare tactics cloud the debate, or to allow partisan bickering to block the path. Your voice, right now, is essential.

    See my full plan and call on your representatives to support it:


    Ours is not the first generation to understand the dire need for health reform. And I am not the first president to take up this cause, but I am determined to be the last.

    Thank you,

    President Barack Obama

  12. artboyusa says:

    “…and so tonight I say to all Americans, living and dead, that the time for debate is over. The time for talking has passed. The time for shutting the hell up and doing as you are told has arrived.

    “To those who give way to the politics of smear and divide, who fear the role that government may play in my wise and generous health care proposals I say: don’t think of the government as an intruder, think of it as friendly neighbour. A neighbor who collects your mail for you and opens it; a neighbor who reads all your emails, just in case. A neighbor who sits outside your house, watching every one who comes and goes and writes it all down in a little book, just in case. A neighbour who knows all your little family secrets and who uses that information to give you good, sound medical advice – which you had better take, by the way. Or else.

    “To my Republican friends I say bend over, spread those cheeks and work with me, bitch. I promise I’ll be gentle.

    “To all those who say that members of Congress should have to adhere to the same health arrangements as all other Americans, whatever form those arrangements may finally take once we’ve wedged and wheedled this sucker onto the statute books I say don’t sweat it. This President knows how to look after his friends. You and your families will still receive the same gilt edged, top drawer, free and perpetual care as before – and that’s a promise!

    “To those who heckle and shout I say I understand your anger. I respect your passion and I really hope it doesn’t spread to the rest of the Republican party…”

  13. ptat says:

    Well said, Artboy! I loved watching Pelosi go all hateful and “if looks could kill” in search of the infidel who dared yell “You lie!” How many times a day do those close to her have to put up with this “steely glare” that she wishes could kill?

    • artboyusa says:

      Thanks ptat. You know ,Pelosi “hateful” looks a lot more natural and unforced than Pelosi “compassionate” or Pelosi “intelligent”. She should try being her hateful self more often.

  14. BigOil says:

    Expect blinky Pelosi to sanction congressman Wilson for having the audacity to bellow out the truth in the halls of congress. Meanwhile, tax cheat Chuckie Rangel goes about his business with nary a word from queen Pelosi.

  15. thetimeisright says:

    Rep. Joe Wilson You are a true American Hero. I know you had to apologize or be raked over the coals an threw under every bus. You made a true statement an obama on the left cant handle what you said.

    I find it amazing that people think there has never been a real argument in the White House or Congress. Keep up the Good Job.

    • caligirl9 says:

      Sad that a person has to apologize for uttering the truth … probably over half the country agreed with him. The kool aid drinkers of course will remain outraged.

      Sometimes it’s hard to keep quiet when you are listening to something you know is utterly untrue.

      Where’s their outrage over the motley crew of TCO’s Cabinet and other appointees: non-tax filers, politicians who have “forgotten” about large investments, and communist sympathizers (a la the “green” czar) who spit in the face of democracy every damn day?

  16. Teresa says:


    This man is obviously trying to take over everything in this country, and, I believe, ULTIMATELY DESTROY THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. His friends are terrorists, dictators, communists, and community agitators.


  17. ilzito guacamolito says:

    ~ Appearing on ABC’s “Good Morning America” Thursday, Biden said the incident made him “embarrassed for the chamber and a Congress I love.” ~

    ~ “There’ll be time enough to consider whether or not we ought to make it clear that that action is unacceptable in the House of Representatives,” House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer, D-Md., said late Wednesday on WTOP radio when asked about possible punishment for Wilson…”Let’s see what he does,” Hoyer said before Wilson issued an apology. “Then there’s time enough to consider further action.” ~

    ~ “Everybody was stunned,” Rep. Maxine Waters, D-Calif., said of Wilson’s eruption. “It was just something that nobody had ever witnessed before. We all felt embarrassed.” ~

    Are any of these libs embarrassed by someone like, oh, I don’t know, say Charlie Rangel to name one? What about punishment for him?

  18. jasper says:

    You should all be ashamed of yourselves. You are making yourselves into a small, outraged, minority that will never win another election. If you can’t listen to reason, you can’t weigh evidence, and you can’t have a mind that is in any way open then you are not doing what the founding fathers asked of you as citizens.

    President Obama is our President, he won the election by ten million votes, which is three times the margin that president Bush won. He is not a nazi. Did Nixon try to take over America when he started the EPA? Did Reagan try to take over America with the Veterans Health Administration?

    If America survived Medicaid it will survive a health plan where everyone has coverage and everyone can choose from a menu of options.

    Joe Wilson showed disrespect to the office of the President of the United States of America. That’s why he apologized multiple times, that’s why his own party spoke out against him. You guys on this blog disrespect the office of the President every day by equating the president to a nazi.

    No patriot would call the president of the United States a nazi. You guys should start your own country somewhere called Jerkistan, and let us American citizens run this country. There are two parties in this country and both have some good ideas and neither has all the answers. if you can’t accept that then you are a bad citizen.

    • Rusty Shackleford says:


    • Are questioning our pariotism?

    • Gila Monster says:

      “No patriot would call the president of the United States a nazi.”


      Hmmmm?? Over 5.4 million Google hits where liberals compared President Bush to a Nazi or Hitler.
      Let me get this straight Jasper. Based on your reasoning, people like George Soros, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Maxine Waters, 90% of Hollywood, 75% of liberals in general, etc. etc., all of whom called Bush a Nazi at one time or another, all these people are no longer patriots in your book?
      No?? They’re still patriots but we are not..?? Surely you jest.

      Hypocrisy, thy name is liberal.

    • proreason says:

      “He is not a nazi”

      – Staged an economic catastrophe to get power.
      – Immediately quadrupled the national debt
      – Took over the Banking Industry
      – Took over the Auto Industry
      – 7 efforts to stifle free speech (at least)
      – 48×7 propaganda campaign, now including lecturing to our children
      – demagogues hatred toward Business, individuals in business, entire industries, political opponents and citizens
      – plans to take over the Health Care Industry
      – acting as the Chairman of the UN Security Council
      – advised by Dr. Emmanuel, the modern-day Dr Mengela
      – attempting to implement Death Panels
      – most anti-Jewish administration of all time.
      – cozies up to every dictatorship on the planet
      – releases Black Panthers and terrorists from jail
      – disables the country’s formal Intelligence aparatus, replaces some with his private force
      – building his own private armies that he is using to “hit back” at people who disagree with him
      – starts Witch Hunt trials to try political opposition for “war crimes”

      You’re right. He’s not a Nazi, yet. Some of his initiatives are just getting started.

      He’s a Fascist with Nazi ambitions.

    • Melly says:

      First of all. I can tell you are an educated person covering your intelligence with dumbed down writing.

      Second of all. It doesn’t surprise me that we have an Obama staffer/ACORN volunteer/Code Pink/or general misguided Obama minion posting on CPAC’s blog of the year.

      Our unity threatens you doesn’t it?

      It is growing.

      Barry’s magic is waning.

      This is what happens when an inexperienced leftist radical is elected into office.

      Remember – this is America.

      Remember our roots, our founding fathers etc.

      Were it the 1700s and we had the same President addressing Congress I doubt very much John Adams would have sat passively thru such a disgusting speech riddled with lies..

      Your attempt to agitate us was useless.

      We can see clearly thru posts such as yours.

    • Petronius says:

      “You should all be ashamed of yourselves. … start your own country somewhere called Jerkistan, and let us American citizens run this country.”

      Wow. Harsh. You’d think Comrade Jasper had just witnessed the Vorkuta Uprising. (“Silence, you capitalist running dogs! Get back in line! Guards!––take them to the mines!)

      Adherents of Marxism, Chicago thug politics, labor unions, ACORN, the New Black Panther Party, and America’s biggest tax-cheats might think twice before calling people on S&L “bad citizens.”

    • beautyofreason says:

      “You should all be ashamed of yourselves. ”

      No, one should not feel shame as a result of dissent.

      “Joe Wilson showed disrespect to the office of the President of the United States of America. That’s why he apologized multiple times, that’s why his own party spoke out against him.”

      John McCain’s critique is meaningless to most conservatives. He is a RINO. Where were you when dozens of Democratic Congressmen heckled and booed President Bush’s addresses to Congress? Yeah, that’s what I thought. Many anti-war protesters compared Bush to Hitler.

      “No patriot would call the president of the United States a nazi. ”

      Great. Tell your liberal friends. As for me, I consider his expansion of health care and approach to dissent similar to the socialism and government expansion of Nazi Germany (“report” link at the white house, brown shirts, Acorn intimidation of town hall protesters, referring to the conservatives as “teabaggers” in the mainstream media, czars with views favoring euthanasia, beastiality, mandatory population control, etc: compare to Nazi germany: socialized medicine, mandatory sterilization of undesirables, press solidly behind the party, reporting on dissenters).

      As for the founding fathers:

      Who’s a jerk? The guy taxing us to death, or the people who are angry about it? There is a deficit of over $100,000 per family, Jasper. And Obama’s work as a community organizer clearly favors an equalization of the impoverished through “progressive” taxation.

      All of us have to pay for this fiscal irresponsibility.

      From Thomas Jefferson:

      “I sincerely believe… that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity under the name of funding is but swindling futurity on a large scale.” –Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816. ME 15:23

      “To preserve [the] independence [of the people,] we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our election between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we run into such debts as that we must be taxed in our meat and in our drink, in our necessaries and our comforts, in our labors and our amusements, for our callings and our creeds, as the people of England are, our people, like them, must come to labor sixteen hours in the twenty-four, give the earnings of fifteen of these to the government for their debts and daily expenses, and the sixteenth being insufficient to afford us bread, we must live, as they now do, on oatmeal and potatoes, have no time to think, no means of calling the mismanagers to account, but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves to rivet their chains on the necks of our fellow-sufferers.” –Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1816. ME 15:39

  19. jasper says:

    You want to believe that the bill has death panels in it. So does Sarah Palin. So no matter what is actually in the bill, you will always see death panels in it. You will believe that moderate Republicans have death panels in the bill. At one point Palin said that the death panels had been removed because of her comments even though Congress was not in session. Now she’s saying the death panels are back in the bill. How is that not lying?

    Paying the hospice counselor is not a death panel.

    • proreason says:

      It’s not lying because the Death Panels are still in the House Bill.

      They were only taken out of the Senate Bill.

      To you actually pay attention to this stuff, or do you just refer to the talking points given to you.

    • beautyofreason says:

      No, not “want.” I simply recognize that one-size-fits-all policies rationed by a massive government bureaucracy with little accountability (can you sue the federal government for a botched procedure? No) generally lead to unnecessary deaths and yes, earlier deaths for undesirable patients.

      Take a case under the NHS this week: a baby was born at 22 weeks and survived for two hours in his mother’s arms. The NHS policy tells doctors not to treat the medical needs of infants born before 23 weeks – to let them die because of low odds. The mother pleaded to the doctors to help. The doctors said “we don’t have to.” The kid died – after surviving on his own for two freaking hours, without a breathing tube or in intensive care. For reference, the earliest premature infant to survive was born at only 21 weeks in the United States. So we have a case of a child that is left to die because he doesn’t fit into the government policy.

      In Britain those thought to be dying are usually put on continual sedation and their food / drink tubes withdrawn – which may mask improvement in patients’ condition and lead to unnecessary deaths. Some people, even men in their twenties are denied liver transplants if they are not healthy enough to leave the hospital to prove they can survive for six months without drinking – red tape. The insanity goes on and on. And when the government manages health care the population is subject to its whims – get ready for taxes on fast food in order to “encourage” people to make their government health care less expensive.

      So yeah, there are death panels – usually not 1984 style courts that sentence people to die outright – but ridiculous policies and rationing that lead to many unnecessary deaths. The bill is enormously vague to give the government a high degree of control. I am sure the health care plan will also cover abortion and illegal immigrants, as Democrats rejected provisions which would have banned both. Just because the language of the bill is not explicit, does not mean that those abject abuses of power will not occur. In fact, you should expect them in the absence of such limitations. Would you accept the Constitution without a Bill of Rights?

  20. Are you questioning our pariotism?

  21. artboyusa says:

    “President Obama is our president” is a rather redundant way to express an unhappy fact. “A menu of options” suggests that you will be served in a timely manner. You won’t. You will wait and wait. I live in the UK and over here we have the NHS. My wife needs physiotherapy. She’s waited three weeks now and been in pain for three weeks and the only reason she isn’t waiting longer than that is because I pressed the doctor for the earliest possible appointment. A few years ago she discovered a breast lump (benign as it turned out, thank God). She rang me up in tears because the doctor told her she was “Priority Two” and would have to wait for a couple of months for a mammagram. I called the doc and shouted at him and she got seen in a couple of days but if I hadn’t she’d have waited for weeks in anxiety…believe me, jasper – what Obama’s selling you don’t want. Honest.

    • proreason says:

      “believe me, jasper – what Obama’s selling you don’t want. Honest.”

      Jasper wants it.

      He’s on the payroll.

      That’s why he’s here.

    • caligirl9 says:

      There’s been a media blitz concerning the re-mastering and re-release of the Beatles catalog, which has got me thinking about how wonderful health care in the UK must be, given the cancer deaths of two people in that story.

      Why did Paul McCartney’s now-deceased wife Linda go to the U.S. for treatment for her breast cancer? (Linda of course was a U.S. citizen by birth but she and Paul lived in England, Scotland and in the U.S. [Arizona, where she ultimately passed away.]) Why did George Harrison go to the U.S. (most notably the Mayo Clinic) for treatment of his lung/brain metastases following treatment from throat cancer brought about by smoking? (He elected to treat the throat cancer in England at London’s Royal Marsden cancer hospital, radiation therapy only.) One could certainly argue that those two people paid plenty into the British health care system. Why didn’t they just stick with the free cancer treatment they’d already paid for in England?

      (Ringo’s ex-wife also died of cancer, but she was remarried and living in the U.S. when she took ill.)

      Just sayin’… there are plenty of other examples out there, those two were the most obvious to me. Seems that in GB state-of-the art care wasn’t available, denied or going to be delayed. No one in this country is denied a service—it’s about payment for those services.

  22. jasper says:

    Proreason, I am a liberal who sometimes listens to rush Limbaugh because I believe in hearing both sides of issues. But when i heard the nazi stuff I went on line to find a blog where I could get conservatives to explain to me how the President is a nazi. I don’t belong to any organizations, i don’t work for any politicians or anything like that. A lot of my family are conservatives but we don’t talk about politics.

    And I like that your handle is Proreason – reason from a guy who wants to punch the TV when the President is addressing Congress.

    You have gotten so knee – jerk that you will believe any ridiculous rumor as long as it is negative about the democrats or positive about the Republicans. Have you ever once thought that the other side had a good point? If not then that’s a sure sign that you are no longer reasoning, you are just a self – trained attack dog.

    • proreason says:

      Which ones are rumors Jasper?

      Of the list I just gave, the only 2 that are not verifiable facts are that he and his handlers caused the economic crisis, and that he is building private armies. And for each of those, there is plenty of evidence. For example, did you know that George Soros has been convicted of Securities fraud in Hungary for his activities in September/October 2008. You can verify that. And even if you don’t officially call the SEIU thugs and Acorn “private armies”, it is easy enough to interpret them as such. Plus he keeps his campaign organization going and has this youth group he talks about funding at the level of the military periodically.

      But again, aside from the 2 that are aren’t hard facts, every thing else I listed is a fact.

      Since those things don’t alarm you, and there are plenty more, it’s clear as a bell that nothing short of throwing a bunch of dissenters in jail could alarm you.

      But demagogues always attract large followings. Hitler certainly did, and a long time before he started exterminating the Jews.

      And while we are on the topic, why is so little known about the Moron’s past, other than his own blatant lies. Everybody has acquaintances don’t they?

    • Melly says:

      If you listened to Rush – then you would know about “Sweetness and Light.” Rush often acknowledges Steve’s blog.

      And it was Nancy Pelosi and the administration who started with this Nazi nonsense.

      Get that straight.

      We are calling him a Marxist, Communist, Radical Leftist.

      Barry’s union thugs, ACORN army etc act like Brown Shirts.

      I don’t think anyone here has ever referred to Barry as a Nazi per se BUT Barry sure has Hitler’s tactics down well.

    • proreason says:

      “I don’t think anyone here has ever referred to Barry as a Nazi per se ”

      I have, but I certainly don’t think he has a secret closet with Nazi daggars in it, not that he has memorized Mein Kampf, not that he is building big ovens.

      Of course, the Moron would feign indiganation and would get as angry as he is capable if anybody called him a Nazi to his face.

      But as you suggest, Melly, the amazing thing is the obvious parallels with the early days of National Socialism.

      Nazis were characterized by
      1, fascist control of Industry,
      2. reliance on unrelenting propaganda to control the public,
      3. scapegoating of groups to acquire power,
      4. total government control,
      5. virulent racism,
      6. strong nationalism and
      7. militaristic imperialism

      Of those 7 characteristics, Obamy is well under way with 1, 2, and 3. It’s undeniable.

      Never in this country’s history have we had a President who has called a political opponent a liar before Congress, or who has “called out” people who disagree with him. Obamy doesn’t want to persuade anyone. He wants to eliminate opposition. It’s clear that 4 is an ambition of The Moron.

      And yes, he is a racist as well. There is overwhelming evidence of it. Wright, Gates, Farrakam, “typical white person”, “flawed Constitution”, “spread it around”, read his book, etc., etc.

      It would be easy to say he doesn’t have Nationalism in his blood, unless you remember that he worshipped at Rev Wrigh’t altar for 20 years. The Nationalism (# 6) he favors is Black Nationalism.

      The last item 7, imperialism, is probably the one people would disagree with the most, and it was certainly a key tenet of National Socialism. I don’t think The Moron is militartistic or has designs on conquering other countries. He has studied past dictators and knows that is a high risk approach to conquest. And he is certainly risk averse. He wants to do it through criminalizing the voting process.

      So what amazes me is that he isn’t called a Nazi more often.

    • Melly says:

      Fascinating Proreason –

      and here I was focusing mostly on the man who followed “Rules for Radicals.”

      Communism and fascism are two sides of the same coin, with fascism not being as controlling to private business as communism was but still very totalitarian. Keep in mind the Nazi part was called the National SOCIALIST party, if that is any indication of their true leanings.

      And based on Barry’s last night’s performance I see another comparison:

      Barry, like Hitler, shouts exciting speeches full of invective and anger. This gave Hitler then, and Obama now, a huge screaming audience who are excited by the shouted rantings of their candidates. In fact, anyone who listens to one of Hitler’s speeches and then listens to Barry will notice at once that despite the difference in language, the cadence of their speeches is the same.

  23. jasper says:

    No, Proreason told me that President Obama’s agenda “maps to” the nazi ideology in every way. He also said that the CEO of GM was a fascist.

    Glenn Beck has repeatedly called the President a fascist and a racist.

    • proreason says:

      Why don’t you dispute what I’ve said Jasper?

      If you know these things to be untrue or nothing to be concerned about, than explain why.

      You call us names. I respond with data points that are easily verifiable. You call more names.

      Kind of like The Moron. You don’t want to debate, you want to level the playing field.

      And yes, the president is a fascist and he is a racist. In spades.

    • proreason says:

      The CEO of GM did what he could to save his company from going down the tubes.

      Businessmen, when wearing their business hat, are apolitical. They will lick any boot that puts money in their pocket and keeps them in their sinecures, much like politicians. That’s what Wagoner did.

      So his actions, like the actions of all the industrialists in Nazi Germany, were fascist.

      As far as Wagoner’s private political leanings go, I have no idea. He could be a fan of Ron Paul. Who knows. It’s irrelvant and I don’t care what he thinks. I don’t even particularly blame him for GM. When a guy with a big gun puts it to your head, even good conservatives will say Javol.

  24. jasper says:

    These you call facts?

    – Staged an economic catastrophe to get power.

    And President George W. Bush announced the crisis and started the bailouts, so he is in on it and nazi also, correct?

    – Immediately quadrupled the national debt
    Again, due to the crisis he inherited from president Bush and deregulatory
    policies also pursued under President Clinton.

    – Took over the Banking Industry

    Again, pres. Bush started it

    – Took over the Auto Industry

    Again pres. Bush started it

    – 7 efforts to stifle free speech (at least)

    Please list anyone who was imprisoned, sued, killed, or hit with a court order to be quiet.

    – 48×7 propaganda campaign, now including lecturing to our children

    Like Pres. Reagan and H. W. Bush

    – demagogues hatred toward Business, individuals in business, entire industries, political opponents and citizens

    last night said that our auto industry is at a competitive disadvantage overseas due to high health care payments.

    – plans to take over the Health Care Industry

    To provide a set of options that everyone can afford

    – acting as the Chairman of the UN Security Council

    unfamiliar with taht, but Hitler did not do that

    – advised by Dr. Emmanuel, the modern-day Dr Mengela

    How is this a fact? Dr. Emmanuel is Jewish.

    – attempting to implement Death Panels

    Not true. Hospice care is not a death panel, just ask anyone who is terminally ill such a smy friend Arianne who was greatly comforted there.

    – most anti-Jewish administration of all time.

    Nixon explicitly disliked Jewish people. Obama Chief of staff is Jewish.

    – cozies up to every dictatorship on the planet

    Pres. bush like Pervez Musharaff and Ahmed Chalabi just fine.

    – releases Black Panthers and terrorists from jail
    Hitler did not release Black Panthers.
    – disables the country’s formal Intelligence aparatus, replaces some with his private force
    You mean Blackwater private troops from Bush admin.?
    – building his own private armies that he is using to “hit back” at people who disagree with him
    You mean press offices, not armies.
    – starts Witch Hunt trials to try political opposition for “war crimes”
    Independent panel outside white house. Many Conservatives agree about torture and killing in custody being war crimes.

    • Jasper, are you one of those who insinuates our government under Bush “staged” the 911 events? Interesting choice of a perspective to put forward first.. Kinda makes the eyes roll.. sad.

    • proreason says:

      Kids stuff.

      If somebody else stole a penny, it’s ok for you to steal a million. Got it, slugger.

      The propaganda campaign – 111 speeches, State-run Press, websites out the ying yang, he has his own SYMBOLISM for God’s sake, he has his own SIGNS on the Stimulus projects, the whole Cult thing, and on and on

      Nationalizing auto industry – I said it was at a competitive disadvantage BECAUSE the Moron took it over, but I see you like my posts. Thanks.

      Emmanuel is a Mengela because he doesn’t have respect for life. And by the way, plenty of Jews hate Jews. I have no idea whether or not the Emmanuel’s do. It’s irrelevant to the point.

      Hospice Care. Who said anything about Hospice Care? The bill reduces Medicare by 1/2 trillion dollars, then it dictates that doctors have end-of-life visits with seniors in which they are obligated to point out all the problems the elderly have and what a burden they are. That’s a Death Panel. No question about it.

      Nixon disliked Jews, so Obama gets a ride? Are you an adult?

      Bush liked Musharef, so Obama gets a ride for wet-kissing every dictator on the planet. Wow. By the way, the Musharef relationship was the lynchpin of the successful war on Terror, which has protected your ass for 7 years.

      I could go on. You responses are basically “yah nah na nah”

      But at least you tried. I’ll give you credit for that. Now I like you a little bit for having some gumption.

      Too bad the POTUS doesn’t have any.

    • Melly says:

      Be careful Jasper – your moveon.org talking points are showing.

      I’ve never read such a sophomoric response to someone’s intelligent argument.

      “Bush started it.”

      SURGEON GENERAL’S WARNING: Stupidity is not for everyone. Do not use stupidity if you don’t want to succeed. Do not use stupidity if you are driving or operating machinery. Do not use stupidity if you are nursing, pregnant, or may become pregnant. Side effects may include: pregnancy, injury, death, fiscal losses, injury to others, or death to others. Always consult your doctor before beginning any cycle of stupidity. Ask your doctor if stupidity is right for you [hint: it isn’t].

  25. jasper says:

    No, hold on. Proreason, is President Bush a nazi and working hand in hand with Obama to create a fascist government, as you implied?

    You seem to be a moral relativist. If a Republican administration does it, you support it. if a Democrat does it, it is a sign of a pending fascist takeover.

    Do you have any principles? Is there anything a Democrat could do that you would support, or anything a Republican could do that you would condemn?

    And, Mr. Gillman, from my home state of Michigan, it was Proreason who said that the economic crisis was staged, not me. I am trying to help him reason through his data points/wild – eyed and baseless accusations.

    • Home state.. Why did you leave?

    • proreason says:

      Japer, this comment is disappointing. I’ve been giving you too much credit.

      I thought Bush was a fool to give the 23B, but understood that as a lame duck he didn’t want to impose a solution to that problem. I wouldn’t have done it if I were POTUS, but it is in no way “working hand in hand” with Obama. And if Bush or McCain had taken over GM, cheated the bond holders, paid off the UAW, and forced them to build $40,000 go-carts, myself and every conservative on the planet would have gone ballistic. Moreso than when Obamy did it, because we already knew The Moron is a fascist.

      I also condemned Bush for being a fiscal clown in general. But looking back, he looks to be a tight fisted miser.

      Now, as for the economic crisis being staged, are you aware that:

      – the crisis began the exact day after McCain took the lead in the Gallup Poll (Sept 8, 2008). Stock Market volume increased by 60% on that day and held that level througout that year.
      – the stock market dropped by about twice as much in September and October as it ever had in a general election year, including the Great Depression
      – Paulsen had declared in July that the economy was sound. Sept 18, he declared that he needed $700B or the world economy would collapse
      – Chuckie Shuman caused a run on IndyMac in the summer. It was unprecedented.
      – Reaper Reid trid to cause a run on AIG in August, but was stopped.
      – in the summer of 2009, employment was strong, corporate profits were at historical norms, PE ratios were near normal, inventories were normal, wages were good. The only hints of catastrophe were a blip in CPI and the Mortgage situation which had been well publicized since the prior October without anybody panicing. Stocks were off but not outside historical norms, and had flattened in the summer. In other words, there were no signs of an impending catastrophy.
      – so despite the Democrats best effort to cause a panic, they hadn’t succeeded up to Sept 8, 2008. The economy was good.
      – In addition, never in history did the price of oil plunge like it did in Sept and Oct 2008
      – Soros was convicted of securities fraud in Hungary for his activities in Sept and Oct 2008. He also made 2.4 billion in profits in the first part of 2008 as the market gradually went down.
      – Goldman Sachs (Paulsen’s ex employer) made out like a bandit in the collapse of the stock market, made out like a bandit in the oil runup, make out like a bandit in the Credit Crisis, and made out like a bandit in every bubble of the prior 60 years.
      – The lynchpin of all of this was Lehman Bros. That was the company that fell the week beginning Sept 8. That’s what all the market volume was about. It was taken over the next weekend. 3 days after that there was an unprecedented money market run that “paniced” Paulsen. The same day, Paulsen and Bernake rushed into Bush’s office with their hair on fire. Coincidentally, Paulsen and Bernake are Democrats.
      – Goldman Sachs and Soros knew about the derivatives. They knew that bringing Lehman down could start a panic and that they could manipulate things from there.

      There was never anything like it, ever. Yet the economy and markets were normal until Monday, Sept 8, the exact day when McCain grabbed the lead in the most important poll.

      But nobody says anything about it. And why should they? The Moron got elected. Soros and GS made billions, and put their puppet in the WH. And why should the Wall Street traders say anything….if it’s true, their livlihood is ruined for a generation. And why should Republicans say anything? They still have their sinecure’s in Congress, and if one ever says everything, the Slimes and WaProCBSNBCABC will run him out of office. And the only people with the information to prove it are market insiders, who would lose their livlihood and maybe their lives.

      So the strangest economic events of all time happened in the 2 months before a Fascist was elected. Everybody agrees that the events elected him, but nobody with a megaphone is even curious about the timing.

  26. conservstudent says:

    Jasper, I understand that you do not see where calling Obama a nazi is coming from. I would ask of you to try to imagine being a conservative in today’s world. Our last president was constantly heckled with comments about his level of intelligence, and even death threats which I will give the benefit of the doubt as being sarcastic. With our new president, and today’s media backing him, many people are getting hammered down for their opinions about him and his policies. For example, one goes out and protests that he feels that he is being misrepresented, while still paying taxes that fund the government, and then gets called a racist hick with no knowledge of history. What was deemed freedom of speech just over a year ago is now hate speech by the media’s standards. Conservatives feel they are being treated unfairly, as compared to how liberals were treated, and they relate this to how opposition was treated during nazism. They are not literally saying Obama plans on killing 6 million jews. I mean, even in a conservative blog, one meets opposition to their opinions.

    Earlier, you asked if there are any liberal ideas someone here believes in. I personally think our health care plan does need to change. But, that being said, I do not agree with the current proposals of how to go about changing said health care. There are Republicans who are having their proposals not even considered or looked at. My main grievance is how this care is going to be distributed. You say there will be a set of opinions that everyone can afford. What about those that live entirely off of government hand outs? How do they plan on getting health care? I already oppose welfare, and now this? For that matter, where is the option to give out a portion of your checks to welfare?

    And I find your attack on Proreason’s name to be demeaning. To my knowledge, proreason has been on this site for some time. How do you know he hasn’t been trying to reason with the other side for a while? But when he constantly gets the same response of how this is all Bush’s fault (or previous Republican fault), I can understand his frustration, and how he can be labeled a “trained attack dog”. As a liberal, I thought you of all people would be most likely to consider things from a different point of view other than your own.

  27. MinnesotaRush says:

    I heard a very wise man once say, “Don’t show up to an intellectual gunfight with no ammo.”

    Talking points are not intellectual ammo.

  28. wirenut says:

    jasper, listen to Rush for two solid weeks straight. Then come back to post. Don’t cherry pick the radio show for talking points. The people here have a deep love of Country, fellow Countrymen and our unique form of self-government. I despise an ever growing and over reaching government, no matter who’s the head of it! Research who the “prez” has surrounded himself with. Very telling indeed.

    Kojerkistan. Area Code 9/11/01

    • “The people here have a deep love of Country, fellow Countrymen and our unique form of self-government. ”

      So True..

      I have only been a patron of this site for about 10 months now.. but in that time I have seen Quite REAL differences of opinion, some resolved, some not.. But nearly ALWAYS argued in a reasonable manner, and always with the country’s interest at heart.. Some of the regulars here could likely make a living by their political analytical skill sets. I am quite proud to be a part of this group.

  29. VMAN says:

    Man am I late to the party. Come on boys and girls (and if there are any African-Americans out there I don’t mean “boys” in a bad way) SIC HIM!!! This “Jasper” is a tool. Jasper “tool” is a description for a lickspittle leftist toady who has a brain full of jelly, hates the USA and can’t think for themselves. I have some great comebacks for you like “Oh yea well Bush did it” or how about “Bush lied people died” or how about just “Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush and oh yea Nixon, Reagan”

  30. jasper says:

    I left Michigan to find work. Today I am pouring plastic parts for this replica sailing ship I’m building. I pour one set of parts and then, while it’s setting, I run up here and write grumpy e-mails for a while.

    The men in my family all worked for GM, all anti – union.

    I a not a member of any political organization. I am just a dude who has no conservatives to talk to to try to understand why you are so angry at Obama.

    Proreason wrote that Obama staged the economic crisis in order to take over. How did he do that? How can you guys deny that the economic collapse started when president bush announced that it did, on his watch? I didn’t accuse him of being a fascist then, I don’t now, and I don’t see how Proreason can accuse Pres. Obama of staging the economic crisis.

    Obama may well mess up and have disastrous Presidency, but i hope like hell he gets things fixed to some extent. We are all in a difficult time for our country, and imagining a science fiction future run by liberal nazis will not help.

    • VMAN says:

      If you’re right and we’re wrong then guess what we’re just a bunch of crazies but if we’re right and your wrong that’s gonna work out real well for everyone huh? End of the good ole
      US of A

    • Michigan is indeed lacking work. We have quite a few Plastic Injection firms that have failed or are going to shortly due to the Automotive crisis. Maybe your plastic pouring skills won’t be missed. But your productivity likely will.

      The Auto crisis, is not about cars people don’t want, it was about cars that don’t meet a specification mandated by congress.. C.A.F.E.

      C.A.F.E. handicapped the automakers which already had the ability to produce cars that are AWESOME, safe, and fun… But required an average that could only be met by building CRAP and selling at a point that created enough demand for the balance.

      THAT in a nutshell is what government intervention in business does. It moves one problem into someone elses yard.

      Health care mandates are little different. By putting ANY restrictions, limitations, mandates etc, on medical services (which MUST happen for GOVERNMENT to control “waste”) the impetus of entry into the profession is lessened.. Sure, you might have a load of feel good softies who will “serve” humanity for the sake of “serving,” but the Profit motive, as well as the Motive to be free of Government intervention is a very compelling force. Enrollment into medical fields WILL decline.

      THEN we have a problem. As Michigan Goes.. so might the country.

      This President has never had a job where he creates things, builds wealth, or relies on innovation. All he is trained to do is TAKE and redistribute. That is NOT how this country has developed its very real strength and prosperity. Perhaps he cannot understand the effect of his actions, but if that is the case he has no business being our president in the first place.

      Being from Michigan, you likely would recognize the sound of a Loon on a summer night. It is a very beautiful sound, yet that loon would likely have as good a policy for our well being in this country as our president. Sounds nice, but bird brain IMO.

    • proreason says:

      “Proreason wrote that Obama staged the economic crisis in order to take over. How did he do that? ”

      Read my post about it above.

      There are about a dozen amazing coincidences in Sept/Oct 2008 you probably aren’t aware of.

      Bush had nothing whatsoever to do with the economic crisis. There was no crisis as late as August 2008. What on earth was in it for Bush? Are you suggesting Dubya was trying to get Obamy elected? Get a grip.

    • The melt down was principally caused by subprime mortgage collapse followed by the fall of home prices which contributed to big time trouble in the whole mortgage industry. The default rate on morgages was so high the billion dollar mortgage bundles put together on Wall Street moved quickly from assets to liabilities. The post Enron “mark to market” accounting rules made firms value the mortgages at present value instead of “book” (what they had paid for them) value.

      Many of these bundles were insured by AIG. When AIG started to go under it was going to sink all the investment houses. Once AIG was solvent (bailed out) it was able to pay off many of its insurance claims. Others took the cash from the bail out anyway though AIG had rescued them.

      Who was responsible? Barney Frank & Chris Dodd bear most of the responsibility. Freddy and Fannie were setting the market by making risky loans with no equity to people with questionable credit scores. (Note: Barney Franks boy friend was at Fannie Mae). Other lenders had to match them to make deals (sort of a public option). The banking regulators also encouraged banks to make the loans. 75%/80% no doc and low doc loans (You did not have to prove income on these loans.) were incredibly abused. The appraisal industry went wild appraising houses way above market value. The banks were pushing adjustable rate loans which in some cases were 3%.

      It hit the fan. In less that a week Paulson, Beranke and Geitner got the congress to write a 787 billion bail out bill. Bush called McCain and Obama to Washington. Both agreed with the bail out.

      Included in the bail out were two sentences that allowed the Fed to invest in private markets. This went unnoticed my most. It allows the Fed to buy stocks to prop up companies.

      Long story short. Dodd and Frank took sweet heart deals from Countrywide. They wanted every American to have a home whether they could afford it or not.

    • proreason says:

      “The melt down was principally caused by subprime mortgage collapse followed by the fall of home prices ”

      I think that is generally agreed.

      What interests me is the timing and the ferocity….perfectly timed to do Obamy the maximum good.

      The suprime problems had been widely known as early as October 2007. That’s when the market started sliding. I clearly remember a local radio guy issueing warning about market caution at that time. Yet there was no bang until 11 months later.

      And there wasn’t a monster run-up like 1929, or 1999. The market was overpriced, but not to the extent of the other major blow-ups.

      The economy was doing ok. Some rumbles, but nothing major. GDP grew 3.2% in Q2 of 2008. Unemployment was in the 5%’s.

      With what we know now, it’s clear that major problems were inevitable, but September 8? 8 weeks before the election? Immediately after the Republican Convention and the Palin phenomenon?

      And then consider the huge drop in gasoline prices at the same time. Unprecedented. And also very beneficial for The Moron, because it took McCain’s biggest issue off the table.

      And with Soros actively trying to tank the market all during 2008. And the Goldman Sachs criminals being big-time Democrat donors with a long history of market manipulation.

      It’s just way too coincidental for my brain to grasp. Just way too perfect for the Moron.

      It was the third time Soror pulled it off. Bank of England in the early 90’s. Indonesia in the late 90’s and now this one. He even brags about it. Doesn’t say he tried to bring down the world economy, but he sure is pleased with his “prognostication ability”. Right. Light predicting trouble for your neighbor before you throw a match on his thatch roof.

    • Colonel1961 says:

      Jasper: not angry at Obama the man, just his hard left policies. I, too, read left, right and center.

      We (and you are correct, it is ‘we’) are in difficult times. I think we’ll survive and wish both sides would turn it down a notch. Might go a long way…

  31. Melly says:

    Obama/Soros is running the administration.
    Soros caused the economic crisis, as he did in Thailand.

    CNN reports:

    January 29, 2001
    Web posted at: 7:16 AM EST (1216 GMT)

    BANGKOK, Thailand — Billionaire George Soros has cancelled a planned visit to Thailand amid threats from protesters who blame him for the Asian economic crisis.

    The protesters threatened to pelt Soros, a financier who operates out of New York, with excrement and rotten eggs.

    They accuse him of speculating on the That baht in early 1998, causing it to be devalued and setting off a wave of panic across the region that caused shares indexes to crash, currencies to plunge and commodity prices to hit long-term lows.

    The ensuing financial crisis eventually spread to emerging markets in Russia and Latin America.


    Sound familiar?
    The moment McCain pulled ahead of Obama in the Presidential polls – the market crashed. Coincidence?

    As Steve recorded a while back (spring 2009):

    For the record, here is the full context from The Australian’s interview:

    So people bring things to your attention if they think a situation is developing in a region or a market?

    I read the newspaper, I have some financial services that I also look at. I’m not on top of the financial markets. I just don’t have adequate information on detail so I can only use blunt instruments that are sort of macroeconomic instruments. On the other hand, I am tremendously involved in policy issues and that is where I am focusing.

    What sort of policy?

    The financial crisis, and how to solve it. It was not something that I was particularly concerned with prior to the rise of the crisis and I am also involved in the activities of the (Soros) Foundation.

    But for the past 18 months you have been keeping an eye on the markets?

    Yeah but I have also been writing a lot more than I was writing before because the crisis really stimulated me. I wrote a series of articles in the course of the year, I wrote a book, I published a book and I’m just about to publish a sequel to last year’s book, bringing it up to date, I am just working on it now.

    So do you have a sense that things are coming together for you now?

    It is in a way a culminating point of my life’s work, so to speak.

    Everything is coming together.

    Yeah, the American election, the financial crisis, the theory of reflexivity. So it is actually a very stimulating period.


  32. jasper says:


    We can debate that welfare thing like two civilized men. I was a Conservative in High School and that was the issue that seemed the most unfair to me.

    I heard Grover Norquist once say that “taxes take money from people who earned it and give it to people who did not earn it”. He, like you, was thinking of lazy scumbags who get handouts. But the taxes also pay our troops’ wages, our grandma’s medical bills, our veteran uncle’s medical bills, they get teh roads built, they keep teh planes from crashing. Also, did Paris Hilton “earn” the money that her Grandpa left her and her accountants manage? I say the soldier in Iraq earn his government handout a LOT more.

    I liked when Rep. Newt Gingrich said he would cut government waste and spending. I thought “hey, now we’ll have an example of a politician really balancing the budget and cutting this giant government”. But he didn’t do it. he didn’t cancel even one government agency that I’m aware of.

    Moreover, Pres. Clinton cut welfare more than any President ever has. Everyone has a five year lifetime limit on welfare now, that was Clinton’s bill and, I believe, he ran on it.

    So, to answer your question, Medicaid already pays all the medical bills of the poorest people in the country. It has done so since the 60’s. But a lot of you guys on here, besides Neoconmom, must be against Medicaid because it is a socialist/fascist program, and a government take over of medical care.

    • Melly says:


      Welfare Reform Bill was a Republican created bill. Please get the facts right. Clinton was forced into a political corner – he had to sign it.

      In the floor debate Senator Edward Kennedy, who voted against the bill, described it as “legislative child abuse.”

    • proreason says:

      “Welfare Reform Bill was a Republican created bill. ”

      As was Clinton’s relative fiscal conservatism, and NAFTA.

      Clinton governed more as a Republican than as a Democrat, because he wanted to stay in office more than he wanted to satisfy his yen for Socialism.

      It’s also possible to argue that his foreign policy was largely Republican. Certainly he wasn’t an anti-Semite like the Moron. And he did use military force in Bosnia…successfully.

      Where he failed was when he acted as a Democrat, notably in depleting the military, gutting the intelligence services, and in his public and private social policies.

  33. jasper says:

    Ok, Proreason, thank you for clarifying. Do the rest of you on this website believe that George Soros and Goldman Sachs and Senator “Chuck Schuman” (actually Schu-mer ) launched a great conspiracy that seized control of the government and economy and that both the Republican and Democratic parties are working with the conspiracy?

    If so, you must realize that Obama is merely a spokesman and puppet for the real powers. Why waste your anger on him?

    Also, how many of you belong to the John Birch society and believe that Dwight Eisenhower was a communist? And how many believe that FDR was also?

    I listened to Obama’s speech last night and I’ve seen films of Hitler’s speeches. They do not look at all alike to me.

    One point I will concede, I will not say that “Bush did it, so it’s Ok if Obama does it”. That’s not what I believe. But actually countering a statement like “Dr Emmanuel is the new Dr, Mengele” requires rather a long discussion.

    • proreason says:

      Jasper, you really need to start sharing information, and stop with the name calling.

      I gave you about a dozen pieces of information and all you can reply is “are you a John Bircher”. No comments, just spouting something you would consider a slur.

      I speak for myself by the way, and not for anybody else on this website. Most people here, it seems to me, are not very interested in the financial events of 2008 and choose not to comment on the parallels between the Moronistration and Hitler’s regime. Maybe they don’t think it’s safe to comment. If so, I don’t really blame them. Who really feels safe speaking up today? After all, the President declared on national TV last night that he would be “calling out” naysayers, and he is on his 2nd or 3rd iteration of snitch websites already. Earlier, he declared that his people would be “hitting back twice as hard” when people disagree. Strangely reminiscent of another administration, isn’t it. And who isn’t aware that his minions have spent millions of dollars destroying Sarah Palin’s reputation and even the livlihood of a lowly plumber.

      Why would you think that I would think Eisenhauer was a Communist? He was a warrior against Communism. And an underappreciated president.

      Have you read any of Dr Emmanuel’s writings? They are really creepy Jasper, really creepy.

      But don’t give up. It’s obvious you are a very young person and still steeped in the brainwashing you received in State schools. I was probably about you age before I began to think for myself. There is hope for you.

    • VMAN says:

      One dictator never looks exactly like another otherwise there would be no problem recognizing them. Like I said before if we’re wrong and your right then were just nuts but if we’re right and your wrong… well I guess you get your workers paradise. Have fun.

  34. jasper says:

    Clinton’s camapign in 1992 promised to get people off welfare and into work, by cutting off benefits.

    So, that is my point. The Republicans had a good idea there, Democrats picked it up, and the situation in the country (arguably) improved.

    Liberals like me don’t want to see people languishing on welfare, so we have common ground and we can pass policies that help together.

    But now I don’t know what to think with this huge government conspiracy. I guess we’ll have to ask George Soros to improve health care.

    • proreason says:

      “this huge government conspiracy”

      conspiracy’s are when something is hidden.

      The Moron’s Health Scan is totally out in the open.

      If he wanted to improve Health Care in the country there are dozens of ways he could do it that don’t throw everything away and start over. Some might work. Some might not. But that is how anybody trying honestly to reform on of the most complex systems ever developed would go about it. Incrementally, because the risk of a massive change is simply too great. Particularly consider the track record of big-government programs.

      That’s how we know for 100% certainty that it isn’t about Health Care at all.

      It’s about Power and Facism, and about him and his puppet-master destroying the middle class so those pesky entrepreneurial freedom-loving types can never challenge the commissars again.

  35. jasper says:

    Well, I think Wagoner just wanted the money. That’s why he begged Congress for it. Governments, including the US gov., subsidize industries every single day. We pay billions to keep corn prices low. So, under your definition, the US has been a fascism since at least 1900.

    I want to apologize to you guys who have pointed out that all this sort of stuff was said about Bush back in his time. I’ll admit that I probably did compare the Bush Administration to fascists when they set up secret jails and torture chambers around the world. I may have also mentioned in passing that the nazis launched wars on multiple fronts, making dubious claims of self – defense. I probably also said that Hitler and invoked emergency powers after terrorist incidents, and considered it a state of war that would never be lifted.

    But, Proreason, you and I were both sloppy and wrong when we used the words fascist or nazi to describe the US government.

    And your conspiracy theory is about as credible as most conspiracy theories.

    • VMAN says:

      Proreason I gotta say YOU ROCK!!!
      As for Jasper here are a couple of definitions
      Fascist : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
      Nazi : Etymology: German, by shortening & alteration from Nationalsozialist, from national national + Sozialist socialist

      George Bush was niether

    • Melly says:

      Ditto on “Proreason you rock!.”

    • proreason says:

      You’re right that the US has been becoming more Socialist in the 20th and 21st centuries.

      But Jan 1, 2009, the government controlled about 22% of the economy.

      If Fascist Health Care passes, on top of Fascist Banking and Fascist Morgange Lending and Fascist Auto Mfg, then the percentage of economic activity controlled by the government will be in the mid-40%’s.

      Is that really what you want?

      You want the same people who can’t run the Post Office, who have bankrupted Social Security and Medicare to the tune of $40 trillion dollars, and who haven’t balanced a budget in decades…..you want THEM to be controlling your health care?

      You need to really think about it Japer, instead of spitting out a slur or one of your talking points.

      Your health is your life, it’s your family’s life, it’s your kids’ life. And you are hoping to put it in the hands of the people who run the DMV. And don’t tell me the public option or whatever new name they invent won’t gobble up all of the private parts of the system. Even you know it will. The people designing it want it to.

    • proreason says:

      Nelly, thanks. (and VMAN too)

      Love your post where you reveal little Jasper as a movon.org disciple. Makes sense.

      Other than pointing out that Dubya did some socialisticy thingees himself. did wee Jasper cite a single fact or historical reference?

      He’s a lot like the Moron in that respect.

  36. jasper says:

    Right, the health plan is not the conspiracy. I meant your conspiracy where the Republicans and Democrats, as well as many CEOs, are working for George Soros. And Soros wants to put us all in death camps, albeit camps with good medical facilities.

    • Melly says:

      You do defend Soros a great deal. I noticed that threaded throughout your posts.

      A moveon.org disciple you are indeed.

      Interesting tactics you used today: when in doubt use Bush, deflecting away from Obama, down playing your political involvement, writing as though you are not trained in blogging and then correcting others’ typos, throwing out terms that indicate you are well entrenched in political debate, attacking one of the strongest posters that graces this blog.

      You see, the more you post, the more you reveal who you really are. The wild frontier of the internet may mask many people but when it comes to defending ones principles and fighting for ones liberties the true essence of the poster breaks thru and reveals himself/herself.

      I’m done with you.


  37. wirenut says:

    jasper, do your think that you should keep what you alone have earned? Or should your skills, your labor, your property, your existence be mandated by a bureaucracy from afar? Answer truthfully. I reject whats being proposed. Our founders and framers believed in ” WE THE PEOPLE ” not “us” the government ! Turn free thinkers lose and we can do more for others (as we have in the past) then any mandate possible. What’s yours is yours, what’s mine is mine. The more I get to keep of it , the more I get to spread around as I see fit. It’s OK to be a closet conservative, but to use somebody else’s line. I’m out of the closet now. Freedom is not just an expression, it’s a way of life. Freedom for you means something I guess. Freedom for me, means keeping your politics at arms length for as long as possible.

    • proreason says:

      The great thing about people vs government is that there are millions of people, and only one government.

      Even if I loved every word of HR 3200, I wouldn’t want to do it. What if I were wrong about it? Once we go down that path, there is no going back and every decision some nameless bureaucrats would make would have life or death consequences for thousands or millions. That’s nuts.

      The innate power of thousands of businesses and millions of people exercising their freedom and their intellignence is that even though many will fail, some will succeed. And out of that comes real progress. Not the x’ist lockstep, do-it-my-way-or-I’ll-call-you-out kind of “progress”, but progress that creates miracles in the desert like the Israelis accomplished in a few decades.

      The arrogance of people who think they can centrally plan for 300 milliion is breathtaking, and frightening.

      You would think that they would notice that central planning always fails in the modern world. Do it big enough, and millions of poeple will die cruel deaths. Who can deny it?

      But of course, the fascists don’t care about that.

      They only care about their own power and wealth. And they hate people who won’t bow down to them.

    • Weakest link…

      1000 ppl with independent decisions.. 997 with success, they succeed, and must to survive..


      3 ppl in a bureaucratic string who are paid ..success or not. One person in the string destroys the entire process.. resulting in failure for all..

  38. Media_man says:

    Joe Wilson called it like it was. It seems something is amiss when Obama can arrogantly call everyone who disagrees with him a liar or a fool and when somebody heckles back, they are treated like Hannibal Lecter.

    I think calling him a liar is putting it charitably. He’s a lying SOS commie stooge.

  39. wirenut says:

    Dr. Lecter paging Dr. Kevorkian. I need assistance in Constitution hall. The patient still has a heartbeat. Haw!

  40. Howard Roark says:


    So far, since Jasper sauntered in today, our discussion turned from “Hey, we still have a politician with a pair”, to

    You should all be ashamed of yourselves. You are making yourselves into a small, outraged, minority that will never win another election. If you can’t listen to reason, you can’t weigh evidence, and you can’t have a mind that is in any way open then you are not doing what the founding fathers asked of you as citizens.

    and I still think it wonderful that a freshman Congressman had the unconventional manner of letting his voice be heard in the way he did. Jasper’s earnest attempt to show us how we should be ashamed of ourselves has said more about him, his powers of persuasion, and love of country.

    I score it:

    JASPER 0

    And that’s after giving careful and considerate thought towards both. Read over PR’s posts at 12:09pm, 12:37, 1:47pm, 2:23pm, 2:30pm, 2:54pm, 4:35pm 4:55pm, 5:29pm, 5:50pm, and see if you don’t come away with someone who can back up his facts.

    Big contrast with the little imp who scampered in our cozy den and said that we couldn’t listen to reason, you can’t weigh evidence, and you can’t have a mind that is in any way open.

    Go read Jasper’s only post that even tried to address the issues head on at 2:39pm instead of throwing red herrings and constructing straw men throughout most this entire thread that was supposed to be about a little boy who stood along the parade route, and wasn’t grown-up enough to avoid screaming at the King as his carriage passed by, “The Emperor wears no clothes!”

    Or, “You lie!”

  41. TwilightZoned says:

    Whoa, looks like I missed the shootout at O.K. corral!

    Pro-As I watch you casually slide your pistols back into the holsters,
    and tip your hat…I notice every bullet has hit the bullseye and poor
    ‘ol jasper completely missed the target. Nice work partner!

  42. ptat says:

    Proreason and all my other SL friends: I give up. I have reasoned with the liberals for years now, patiently applying logic and facts (the tipping point came yesterday when I was told the facts weren’t factual enough!), appealing to common sense, etc. TO NO AVAIL! Please! Have any of you ever been able to persuade these morons!?

    • TwilightZoned says:

      No. This is why I come here. To preserve my sanity in an insane world.

      God bless ya Steve!

    • proreason says:

      It seems impossible to persuade them directly, but that doesn’t mean they don’t listen.

      I was a brainless liberal for years, and I do mean brainless, because I just never thought about it. College taught me to be “compassionate” and than I ran off to try to make a living and other stuff. Stayed liberal for a long time. I didn’t get into many discussions about politics, but when I did, my attitude was mildly contemptuous of people who I saw as greedy.

      Hillarycare began to turn me, and then high taxes, and 9/11 was the coup de grace.

      So I understand a bit where they come from. It’s really all about what you’ve been taught, and it takes a good dose of reality to learn that something-for-nothing isn’t a viable long term strategy.

      If you look carefully, there are only 3 categories of liberals: people too young to have experienced life, people so rich or so secure in a job (i.e., professors, UAW members) they have never had to struggle, and people determined to get in your pocket. And all of those types are very easily led, and very difficult to persuade. At least there is hope for the teenagers like Jasper. He seems to have some job issues already. He could wise up someday.

    • ptat says:

      Thanks, Pro, for the insight. You have wisdom and a wonderful perspective. I, too, was a liberal, thoughtless and full of feeling, just feeling. Then I started struggling to make a living, paying high taxes and listening to Rush. Quite an eye-opener! Your categorization of liberals is spot on! Exactly the voter block that got Obama elected.

  43. canary says:

    Associated Press wrote “His Web site crashed, he took a beating on Twitter as Republicans and Democrats alike condemned his behavior.”

    Does the AP mean by “beating” that he was mobbed by thugs? Is the AP lying, because I’ve heard mostly support towards Joe Wilson. Joe Wilson did the right thing. Obama is evil, and unaccountable, and a poor role model for every human being in the world.

  44. Carol says:

    Joe Wilson is my new hero!

  45. wirenut says:

    Pro. Don’t beat yer-self up. Everybody took a turn at the moron batters cage. Hell, I went for a few curve balls myself.
    Young jasper is a rookie, but unlike most libs, he didn’t charge the mound. He kept it PG, and you did too. I kind of hope he comes back on occasion, not just for his education but for mine as well . Rally hats are on and the truth will eventually drain the poison from their minds.

  46. canary says:

    More and more media articles are being dishonest in support of Obama’s deceptive statement. (duh for one thing they are already getting free health care) Someone told me on CNN they showed the bill and number that showed they were included. Anyways, found this article on major loopholes. Anyways, it has pic of witchie woman Nancy Pelosi, and her wig line is showing. I think a better caption for this pic is “Nancy blew her lid off”.

    Further Obama is still angry about Joe Wilson, and his poor behavior. Well, I don’t appreciate Obama telling the Canadian Prime Minister that many American’s are afraid of the boogey man. After all, he believes in African voo doo and spirits. And as he wrote he has no idea where we go after death, a little fear would help him in trying to be truthful. Obama wrote his mother had a difficult time instilling values in him, such as honesty. Leopards seldom change their spots. Obama is a meglomaniac.


  47. WendyB says:

    Well, shoot, I’m late to the party! Jasper, FWIW, I think Pro is on to something with his suspicion as to the timing of events in September 2008 and George Soros’s involvement. And, yes, I do think FDR was a communist. Actually, sadly, I think he was a wannabe communist, which is really pathetic. How else to explain most of the New Deal; the fact that he refused to let Patton move east fast at the end of the European theater fighting, but held him back so the Russians could gobble up everything east of Berlin; and the fact that so freaking many of the people in his government were Communists themselves? He, like so many elitist liberal a$%es, had a mad crush on the fairy tales of socialism and communism and those butch guys like Stalin. In fact, the passion of 20’s and 30’s liberals for Stalin is eerily resonant with the MSM’s current swooning for Barry.

    • proreason says:

      You’re a star, Wendy.

      I hadn’t thought about FDR and the end of WWII, but what you said makes sense.

      But I’m more tolerant of FDR than modern liberals, because he didn’t have the perspective of the 75 years of reality since he won in 1932.

      For somebody today, with full knowledge of the atocities of Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Fidel and the hundreds of Communists and Socialist failures since 1932, to propose socialism as a solution….it’s just mind-boggling.

      They call themselves “progressives” but basically they want to turn the clock back to the days of absolute rule. It flies in the face of history.

      Since the Magna Carta, the thrust of history has been for people to take control of their own lives. In other words, freedom. The US is the apex of the 1000 year trend. And look at the results. After 10,000 years with 99% of the world’s population living as serfs, wealth and lifestyles for millions of people have improved by orders of magnitude. Common people in the US live like royalty did in the 1700’s.

      But “progressives” want not just to stop the clock, but to return to 1000 AD. They want a tiny elite to make the decisions for the other 99.9%. And in a strange coincidence, the leaders proposing it just happen to be the .01%. That’s why, by the way, they have such solidarity with Islam. The approaches are different, but the ultimate goal is the same.

    • WendyB says:

      Thanks, guys! And Pro, that’s exactly what drives me nuts about fellows like our Jasper: after the last 90 years, how can anyone think socialism is a good idea? I’ve been challenging several of my nieces and nephews and their friends, all 20-somethings, about this, and what I’m hearing is, “well, that’s sure a lot of facts and history you’re throwing out, and I don’t know anything about that, so we’ll just have to agree to disagree.” !!! They’ve never read anything that wasn’t in their libtard school curriculum, which still worships FDR, or, if they’re really enterprising, they’ve read Pravda on the Hudson or maybe signed up for updates from MoveOn.org at a Warped Tour concert. And thinking is hard. It takes time away from taking quizzes on Face Book. It’s so much easier to go with what feels good and fair, like “everyone should have health care.” When I try to point out that there’s a price for everything and the price here is America’s legacy of liberty, which built, as you point out, on the Magna Carta and a thousand years of developing the idea of individual freedom, they tell me that’s just too many facts to think about. Honestly, it would make me suggest disenfranchising the entire Gen Y, except that I have friends in my generation, Gen X, that are just as blind and lazy.

    • proreason says:

      Wendy, the de-education/brainwashing of youth is a deliberate strategy that the left has been pushing at least since the late 40’s.

      Control of education and control of the media are the two predecessors to the takeover of the country. Both activities are complete.

      Putting a demagogue in power is the third step.

      Now we are in the consolidation phase.

      But all is not lost. There are millions of us who know what is going on. And we are way smarter than them. And we have only begun to fight back.

      When we beat them off this time, we have to make sure to take education and the media back.

  48. wardmama4 says:

    Ah – shucks – I had to spend the day in the car – and looked what I missed.
    Ok Jasper (who is probably gone now that he thinks he got a rise out of us) – here goes.
    Nov 2001 my youngest son suffered a burn injury – Army ER knew that there was nothing they could do – it was ‘hopeless’ for their level of care (Point here – Government provided care). But the ER Doc was a good Joe – he called BAMC (Brooke Army Medical Center – another Government provided care – this one the Armed Forces Burn Unit) – Nope – ‘hopeless’ can’t do it. But again, the ER Doc just couldn’t stand there watching my son die (he was talking upon arrival) – so he made one more call. To Shriners Burns Institute in Galveston, TX. They said OK – be right there. Jet with 3 (Dr., Resp Therapist & RN) healthcare professionals arrived and my son and I jetted to Galveston. For 8.5 months – the Government said – nope, nada, nein, at all. Ever. Did not pay a single solitary penny. The generous donations of thousands upon thousands of plain Jane & Joe Americans covered it. Thank You all very much.

    You would not believe the state of the art – new age – techno innovative procedures, medical breakthroughs and ideas that these wonderful and dedicated people do 24/7/365 – without charging the family (if their insurance won’t pay) a penny.

    How much is that worth to me – I can’t put a price on it – because I have my child. And damn you and the Liar in Chief for wanting to take that away from the next family (50,000 people are burned in America every single year). Because check it out Jasper – those in the World who want the best care – come to America – Saudi sheiks, government leaders, and every one else – who can afford to get the best or are so desperate that they want the best. That means that all the other ‘civilized’ nations that have ‘universal’ care – aren’t providing the best or it isn’t even isn’t an ‘option’ for those who can afford it. Only in America. Don’t lie to me – and then call me stupid.

    Illegal Aliens & Healthcare – Sec 246, Page 143 – calls them ‘undocumented’ aliens and says only ‘No Federal Payment’. But it is watered down by Sec 1702, Page 746 that says a State shall accept without further determination the enrollment of individuals determined by the Commissioner. . . And then the fact that two specific Amendments to HR 3200, that state specifically that Illegal Aliens could not get Healthcare – were defeated. All can lead to one to believe that indeed Illegal Aliens can/will get covered. So therefore, Obama Lied and thus Wilson was telling the truth. And oh btw – how about this –
    ‘Partisan Dems boo Bush twice during his State of the Union Address. . .’
    How’s that civility doing for you – Now?

    P.S. And Joe Wilson is my new hero, too!

    • Howard Roark says:

      Helluva story, Ward. I’m glad your son received that life-saving treatment. God bless you both.

    • proreason says:

      But wm, 1,000 crack addicts could have bought plasma tv’s with the money spent to heal your son. Is that fair?

      See, this is the problem with charity. The hundreds of people who generously sacrificed a sliver of themselves to give your son the gift of life can’t be allowed to make that kind of decision.

      We must tax them into poverty, so Obamy can weigh the benefits of 1,000 plasma tv’s vs your son’s life. Only he, and his fellow Harvard geniuses, can make decisions of that magnitude.

    • wardmama4 says:

      Proreason – equivalency always is just a matter as to whose values are most important to you.

      Can’t do it – when you are in shock and completely without hope – any hope is viable and valuable – damn the cost and full speed ahead. And it wasn’t easy – as I was sitting in Galveston and listening to the caution and concern in the Drs. voice – I wondered if it was even worth it – but he was still alive. I could do no less. And yes, there were times during the 8.5 months I wondered if we had done the right thing – but once again – he was still alive – how could we do less?

      How much is a life worth – and when do you stop fighting – the answer is only yours to make and you’ll only make it when you are fearful, in shock and up against the wall. To do it when you are analytical and thinking in terms of the end fund sum gain – is faithless at best, soulless at worst.

      My husband & I only had our faith to go on – and the fact that our son continued to live. You want my money, my possessions – have it all – I have my son. And possessions are just things. All is right in my world. And since recovering as time has gone on – his medical costs are going down annually. So I guess it is a win/win after all.

      And in the end I do not care about crack addicts and just might want to post how much they cost the American health care system with all their medical costs (probably the majority at tax payers/insured American’s expense) – bet it’s a damn lot more than my son’s costs.

      Sorry Proreason – I do get your sarcasm, sorry if it doesn’t sound like it.
      And Thank You Howard – I could get the ‘compelling life story’ award if I gave even a few details of the 8.5 months much less what went on in my life (I was one of those ‘do not want my daughter’s to be punished by a baby’ baby – I Thank God I was born before abortion was discovered as a right in America) prior to that night. It was a terrible time in our life – but we have all pulled through – closer as a family, in awe of medical progress and technology available in America today and as SGT Greg Stube said – ‘It’s not that we learned what we value most, it’s that we learned what we value least.’

    • proreason says:

      wm: I know you get my stuff. You are as smart as they come.

      Your story has within it the most important point of all, the underlying theme that most everybody who posts here believes in completely, but we rarely say it explicitly enough.

      WE want to make the decisions for our lives and those of our family members.

      You think your story is about your son, but I think it’s about you. YOU are the one who gave everything to save his life. Nothing would stop you and nothing did. You gave birth twice to the same person. When they try to take that right away, they are facing millions of people who won’t let it happen. Been there. Been there in the USSR. Been there in China. Been there in Cuba, Been there in medieval Europe. Been there in the Muslim world. Been there in the Dark Ages. Been there.

      My dad didn’t fight in three wars so some arrogant government bureaucrat can tell me whether someone I love can have a medicine or not. The family can and must make the decision. And we may not see the barriers that others see. You didn’t. I wouldn’t. God damn officious charlatans who think they have that right.

      And that doesn’t say it’s easy either. Old people get sick and it costs a lot in money, time and effort. Horrible accidents happen like to your son. Maybe we decide to do everything, maybe we reach a point where we can’t do it anymore. But that’s for us to decide, not some computer program that weighs the survival odds against the cost and spits out a cost per day allocation of human life.

      When I say what you’ve heard dozens of times, I mean it factually, and you know it’s true. Millions die when these power mad charlatans sieze power. For those who want to hand the responsibility for their life to somebody else, let them leave our country, along with the con artists who push the crack cocaine of the other guy’s money. For me, and most of us here, we’ll take the responsibility ourselves, fully knowing how hard it will be.

    • wardmama4 says:

      Yeah Proreason – I guess that is the difference – I grew up with a lot of ‘personal stuff’ but throughout my life I can find one or two people who loved me, cared about me and it got me through (to the next ‘stuff’) – what I took from that was that I wanted to make the decisions in my life and not kowtow to a family member, a social ‘constraint’ and most definitely not to some government lacky.

      My mother is 93 – and doing it on her own dime (yes, she is one of those not on Medicare) – not because she can’t fill out the forms – she won’t, she does not want Uncle Obama telling her what she can or can’t do. For her age – her medical costs are amazing low – not that in the past she hasn’t had some pricey care. But now, it is mostly people to provide her meals, cleaning and companionship. I’d like her to come live with us – but she will never do it (her m-i-l, whom she hates, was the exact same way).

      Why should I let some whippersnapper who would not step off the campaign trail long enough to be with his dying mother or only went to his dying grandmother for a whole two days. There is always a next election – there is never another chance to say goodbye or I love you. I know exactly where his beliefs lie – simply from the way he treated the two women who raised him. And that is what scares me most.

  49. canary says:

    Jasper, you are an Obomie. I’ve got an Obomie neighbor, and I recently learned from her that all the Obomies are following a structure of deception, and down right lying.
    You do not acknowledge the bill. The Obomies also want you to think that it will be years before it becomes in effect, as it will need tweaking, when that is a lie. It can take the rest of your life to change one word in this bill if it passes.
    For Obama to say in 4 years, is deceitful, and misleading. My neighbor is trained Obomie, and you can not discuss any issue with her, because they are trained to say the same stupid things. Read the bill. And learn to count. This is not a small minority against the bill.

  50. canary says:

    What on earth are these new political rules Republicans started practicing before the election. Don’t say your voting for McCain, you might get called a racist. Then after Obama’s elected, a new rule added.

    “Well, although I did not vote for Obama, he is our president and we must support him.”

    What does the word support imply. Since when, did I support Bill Clinton when I felt the security and moral values put our country beyond repair. This is the new political rule, that Republicans are following that makes Laura Bush, John McCain, feel they need to speak out, and say what Joe Wilson did was wrong. How about if they just kept their mouthes shut.
    Shame on every Representitive and Republican that publically spoke out against Joe Wilson’s moment of warning to Americans. Conservative Republican’s ostracized him. It’s OSTRACISM, in the name of micro-scopic political correctiness. I do not support Obama, even though he is my President. I am ashamed we have a President that other countries are laughing at. And they are laughing at all Americans. I have no respect for America present president. I consider him to be someone that was born here, but does not stand for what a true American is.

  51. canary says:

    Jasper…Obama just renewed the Blackwater task force.


    Obama as senator asked Bush to help the auto industry. Obama bought them.

    Jasper, Emanual was and is a rowdy hot head, and no telling what religion if any he practices. It’s impossible to take away from the fact during the campaign Obama worshipped with Jew haters, grew up, organized, read anti-Jewish propanda, and is anti-Israel and Obama is anti-Israel to this day. Jasper, I believe you are aware of this. It’s just that Obomi training you’ve recieved.
    Jasper “odie” is wispering in your ear to go hug a tree.

  52. canary says:

    Former President Bush boo’ed at State of Union Speech in 2005. double standards?


  53. wardmama4 says:

    President Obama is our President

    How’s this – 8 years of –
    Selected Not Elected
    He’s Not My President
    I Didn’t Vote for Him
    or perhaps my most favorite hypocritical chant:
    Dissent is Patriotic

    Grow Up – Deal in facts and deal with the Issues – Covering Up and For this POTUS is just as bad as those who did for Bush, McCain or any other (Franks, Pelosi – Oh wait I can’t list almost all 535 of them – so I’ll end with their leader – the late (murderer) Kennedy)

    Go to the library and read Culture of Corruption to see just how ‘crony’, just how non-transparent, how interconnected and inbred (if you will) and just how criminal those surrounding Obama are – and you have to then ask yourself this:

    Is Obama just stupid or also a crony, non-transparent criminal?

    • proreason says:

      “Is Obama just stupid or also a crony, non-transparent criminal?”


      Plus he is a tool of his puppet-masters, and a committed idealogue.

      When they predicted he would come with a smile on his face masking a malovent heart, they were spot on.

  54. artboyusa says:

    OBAMA SPEAKS! An Artboy Exclusive – the unedited transcript of President Obama’s address to Congress on Health Care Reform:

    President Obama: Mr Vice President, Madam Speaker, Senators and Representatives, distinguished guests, my media fans and friends, people of America and of Earth: I come before you tonight to lie, to BS, to be untruthful, to bear false witness, to beguile you, to break my promises, to bullshit you, to con, to deceive, to delude, to dissemble, to dissimulate, to distort, to dupe, to equivocate, to exaggerate, to fabricate, to fake, to falsify, to fib, to fudge, to go back on my word, to invent, to make believe, to misguide, to misinform, to mislead, to misrepresent, to misspeak, to misstate, to perjure, to prevaricate, to put you on…

    Voice: You lie!

    President Obama: Thanks for noticing, Congressman. At least someone’s paying attention. If I may continue? To snow you, to soft-soap you, to string you along, to make stuff up…

    • WendyB says:

      Who can it be? Could it be — Satan? Sorry, couldn’t help thinking your excellent transcription sounded like it was straight out of Satan’s playbook and that made me think of the Church Lady.

  55. Reality Bytes says:

    Been offline fighting for my life here in what’s left of the American economy so forgive me. I’ve been busy.

    Wow SG! – I used the same line the following morning my car pool mates. The Shout Heard Around The World Indeed”

    The ride home the day of the speech, I told them, “The republicans need to get up in this guy’s face.” “When he lies, call him on it. Course I thought the Belushi rebuke best coughing out “Bullshit!” & “East Me!” would have been just as appropriate.

    As usual, Washington & the media that follows insists on seeing JW’s outburst as a “gift to Obama”. The dems are petrified that if this turd passes, they will all be gone next year. My fear is that Obama & his Chicago thugs couldn’t care less. They’re probably scheming how to get around his term limits or even the people’s right to vote anyway.


  56. jasper says:

    I just saw a picture on Reuters. It shows two Americans outside a town hall meeting about health reform. One is sort of strangling the other to stop him from shouting. You can see it here, I think;

    The thing is, I don’t know which guy is on what side in this picture, but I don’t like it. I don’t like seeing this in our country.

    Does this analogy work? This country is like a team of hikers who have gotten lost going up a mountain. One side wants to stay put and await rescue. The other wants to start back down before dark. The stakes are life and death and both sides are willing to bet their lives on their plan. Neither side is evil, but both are extremely vehement. The difference, I guess, is that the hikers can split up.

    You guys are right, we need dissent in this country. I love dissent, and I see that you guys do also. We may disagree about policies, but I am going to try much harder not to demonize those I disagree with. It may be easier for me because I was once a Conservative and I can see how good people can believe things that I disagree with. I got very upset about things that happened under President Bush, but I never believed that he was trying to ruin the country, that he was the puppet of a vast conspiracy, that he was trying to suspend democracy or anything like that. Obama is also an American President and he also will not do any of those things, I assure you. That is just not going to happen.

    I ask you not to defend the bad habit of calling the President of the United States a fascist or nazi. When President Johnson was enacting Medicaid and Medicare, dissenters warned that it would lead to socialism and we would all be imprisoned by it. That did not happen. When FDR instituted Social Security, dissenters warned that it would lead to communism. Some of us today still think FDR was a fascist or communist. Nonethless, the country remained a democracy and it defeated fascism and communism. Also, if you believe that the President is a nazi, some could twist this into justification for killing. I don’t want to see any Republican or Democrat killed for their beliefs in this country ever again.

    Now, here’s what I believe and I know you won’t agree with me. I came onto this blog because I wanted to talk to Conservatives, not just my Liberal friends I already agree with. I hope that some of you have some curiosity about liberals, also.

    I just went to the American Medical Association website and found this;


    It says that, if you are uninsured, you have a 25% higher risk of dying. They found that 18,000 Americans died in the year 2000 due to lack of insurance.
    People without insurance delay tests and their conditions advance to where they can’t be saved. The current health reform proposal would put 30 to 40 million more Americans into private, profit – making, insurance company plans. I think that is good.

    I took care of my dad while he was waiting for a heart transplant and I had to take a year off work because of it. My work let me come back and I am grateful, and my Dad is OK now. My Dad had great insurance through GM. If my boss hadn’t let me come back my wife and I would have been uninsured. And I work with a guy who got colon cancer while he was trying to start his own metalworking business and while he was uninsured. He will never be out of debt and he has trouble paying his employees most months.

    We’ll be OK. This is a strong country and Americans have democracy in their bones. If anyone tries to take away our votes we’ll all be pouring out in the streets, Liberals and Conservatives fighting together.

    Thanks for writing to me everyone.

    • WendyB says:

      Nice try. A few things: we’re not a democracy, we’re a republic. There’s a difference. Learn about it and it might tell you something. Also, I don’t know why you think that the predictions about FDR’s and LBJ’s socialist edifices aren’t coming true. After all, look how well they paved the way for Chairman Obama’s Great Leap Forward. Baby steps, Jasper, baby steps. And before you know it, your young republic has grown up into a big, nasty Communist country.

      Also, FYI, we don’t need people like you to tell us that we’re a strong country. We know that. And we will be fighting the people trying to take away our votes, starting tomorrow. If we wait until the Obamies figure out that ACORN “took away our votes” in 2010, it will be too late.

  57. Reality Bytes says:

    Jasper: “I ask you not to defend the bad habit of calling the President of the United States a fascist or nazi.”

    Well J, sometimes we just gotta call a spade a spade.

    This administration isn’t just following Saul Alinsky’s “Rules for Radicals”. They’re also mapping their “Progressive” agenda per Hitler’s “Mein Kampf”.

    Like Hitler & the NAZI, Obama has taken over the banks, nationalized the auto industry, healthcare, aeronautics, shipping & trade not for the good of the people but for but to cement himself as supreme leader. Why can’t you & the media see it is what frustrates the Hell out of rational thinking people like these on S&L.

    In the end Germany lay ruined & with Obama & his own national socialist party of America (aka Nazis), the same will happen to the USA unless we take this country back.

    I’ll leave you with some quotes from Hitler. They could well have come from the lips of Obama, Alinsky, Aires, Clinton, Pelosi, Reid, Emanuel & the rest of these facsist elitists.

    If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.

    It is not truth that matters, but victory.

    Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it.

    Sooner will a camel pass through a needle’s eye than a great man be “discovered” by an election.

    Success is the sole earthly judge of right and wrong.

    The art of leadership… consists in consolidating the attention of the people against a single adversary and taking care that nothing will split up that attention.

    The broad masses of a population are more amenable to the appeal of rhetoric than to any other force.

    The day of individual happiness has passed.

    The great strength of the totalitarian state is that it forces those who fear it to imitate it.

    The victor will never be asked if he told the truth.

    Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell, and also the other way round, to consider the most wretched sort of life as paradise.

    What good fortune for governments that the people do not think.

    Who says I am not under the special protection of God?

    Words build bridges into unexplored regions.

    • proreason says:

      great list of quotes RB.

      Did you pull it from a website? I’d like to have the link if you did.

    • Reality Bytes says:

      Here you go pro: http://www.brainyquotes.com

      Other great ones from, Ronald Reagan, Mel Brooks, Bob Hope, Groucho Marx, WC Fields. It’s a great site.

      Oh & J, its pronounced “Ignent” these days.

      Gotta go, I got an RBtini waitin’ & an Avo Robusto Maduro.

      Yippie Kai Ye, Indeed.

  58. canary says:

    Jasper, I’m sure you would have welcomed the British with open arms, and we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Obama is a self-proclaimed Socialist, anti-Capitalist, anti-state, pro federal government run entire country, so how on earth can you compare him to Bush. I just believe you know these things and you are not as dumb as you make out to be.

  59. jasper says:

    Canary, you don’t need to call me dumb.

    When pres. Obama said that he wants to put 30 – 40 million new customers in private insurance plans, did you feel that was anti-capitalist? Or when he said that the American auto industry has a competitive disadvantage because of high health costs? Or when he said that the insurance industry does good work and employs many of our friends and neighbors?

    Please give me a reference where Pres. Obama said that he will govern, as President, as a socialist.

    And yes, the US welcomed the British with open arms as our allies in the Iraq war. President bush and I both did welcome the British that way.

    • canary says:

      Jasper, sorry I should have used the word “ignorant” I was speaking of the war our forefather’s fought, instead of letting the British take over America.
      Until you read health bill, you will remain ignorant. Go to the library and read Obama’s 1994 and 2006 book, and you will not be ignorant to Obama’s socialist agenda. Go over his prior speeches of one single payer health care. Also, by listening to conservative radio and news show’s, you will not be as ignorant. Please, time is of the essence: go quickly, start now, and spread the word before it’s too late.

  60. Melly says:

    What we’re dead-set against, like so many Americans who spoke up this summer, is the government-run plan demanded by liberals. That phony “public option” would be used to undermine the private coverage of millions. It has to go.

    So does the “fall-back” gimmick floated in recent days by President Obama, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid: an arbitrary “trigger” that forces the public option on the states if a certain target isn’t met by a certain date.

    We’re more likely to get this right if the federal government simply sets broad goals for coverage and removes obstacles preventing states from trying different approaches. Allow experimentation, then compare results.

    That’s American federalism. We unleashed it to achieve welfare reform. And it’s exactly the opposite of Washington lawmakers’ obsession with dreaming up delivery system “game changers” they can impose from coast to coast, European style.

    Yes, conservatives must address Americans’ fear of losing their insurance or of being trapped in their current coverage. And yes, conservatives must address Americans’ desire for transparency in pricing, but without the government butting in and fixing prices — which would wreck insurance markets.

    • proreason says:

      “We’re more likely to get this right if the federal government simply sets broad goals for coverage and removes obstacles preventing states from trying different approaches. Allow experimentation, then compare results.”

      That’s the way to do it.

      The Founders understood the benefits of Federalism from the beginning, but the Fascists do everything they can to consolidate power centrally, which increases the risk whenever anything is changed.

      As an example, Texas doesn’t have a doctor shortage. Doctors are migrating in from other states. Why? Texas passed tort reform.

      Ironically, we have many other examples of experimentation at the state level with the elements of the Universal Scam THEY ALL FAILED MISERABLY.

      But the geniuses that run (into the ground) the Post Office, the VA Hospital System, Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security will “get it right” for the most complex redesign ever of a massive system that our lives all depend on. Sure they will.

      A hundred years from now, the word lunacy will be replaced in the dictionary with the word obamacy.

  61. VMAN says:

    Jasper I gotta admit you had me going. I really thought you believed the crap you were writing. You really tricked us all. ROTFLMAO OK you can come clean now. Who are you really? Carl Rove just having a little fun? Maybe Sean Hannity poking a making a joke. Because, I gotta tell you nobody could be as big an IDIOT as you are coming off as!!!

  62. Melly says:

    Oh, George W. a/k/a Jasper…the twain shall never meet when it comes to you and I.
    You take Barry at his word.
    Barry is a freaking liar…..PERIOD!
    Barry said that private insurance option SHOULD be a part of the Obamacare bill. He did not say WILL.
    There are 5 different healthcare bills floating around.
    Barry wants a single payer system.

    Liberals want to centralize power in Washington to achieve serious and long-lasting health care reform. Their policy prescriptions call for federalizing and heavily regulating health insurance.

    The result, regardless of stated intentions to the contrary, is that the Congress would ultimately be in charge of health care decisions. It would result in a massive one-size-fits-all government system, and it would depend on flawed financing schemes, new mandates, and higher taxes to pay for it.

    I believe that individuals and families should be the key decision-makers in health care and that they should control the flow of health care dollars in a reformed system.

    Why won’t Barry go after Medicare fraud and corruption NOW?
    Why won’t Barry meet with Mitt Romney and Republicans?
    Why won’t Barry explore other reform measures?

    I am part of 280 million people who are content with their health insurance but would welcome some reform in costs, availability etc.

    I pay $974.47 a month to Empire for my health insurance and I sacrifice to pay for my coverage.

    Health insurance is not a right.

    People forget the definition of a “right.”

    If Empire adjusts my co-payment amount under Obamacare it triggers Obamacare and I will be forced to go on the government plan.

    You need to do your homework while Steve blocks you again.

    You need to study the healthcare system in the UK i.e. a woman’s 21 week baby was denied care because it hadn’t reached 22 or 23 weeks point – the baby died. The healthcare horror stories are endless in socialized countries……let’s be real.

    I want the freaking government out of my healthcare decision making.

    I want Barry to leave me the hell alone.

    Cap and Tax, control over the internet, billions in spending, billions to ACORN, Afghan War turning into Vietnam, coddling terrorists, prosecuting CIA agents, Government Motors, ………..

    How much more can we take? And it’s only been — what 7 months?

  63. Colonel1961 says:

    Hey, George! How are things on the ranch in Crawford? Hope you are doing well and thanks for posting on S&L.

    Most sincerely,

  64. Rusty Shackleford says:


    I’ll make you a deal.

    If you can make it in Texas, then I’ll be happy to listen to what you might have to say.

    But my money’s on you getting your fanny whupped but good. (figuratively)

    You have to learn to do for yourself, not make excuses, and when you slip in a cow patty, you git up, and you move on…you don’t blame the cow.

    Hard to make a buck? You bet. That’s what makes it all the more rewarding and worth defending. Hard fought, hard won and hard to keep sometimes, too.

    Look up a list of Texas expressions and see if you don’t get a hint of rugged individualism and pride in accomplishment. Not to mention a strong distrust of city slickers and intellectuals. Not to say that that trust can’t be earned…but they have a lot of work to do to get there based on their fancy word manipulatin’ and long stories to make a short point.

  65. Rusty Shackleford says:

    You might at that. Sounds like you’re a conservative at heart. Now, let’s say you had that land and the government came and took it for the good of the people. What say you then?

    (And no, I have no land in Texas. If I did, I would be working it.)

    See, the concept of this administration is little more than they (Pelosi, Reid, etc) thinking they know better than YOU, how and what to do, eat, when to sleep, what the doctor should and should not do for you…and Obama has said that the Constitution is only good for telling government what it CAN’T do to you. He has called it a useless document.

    And, in our current administration, there are former 1960’s activists who protested Vietnam, segregation and the whole lot of “establishment” policies, rules, laws, procedures, etc. And, I have said it in the past, that these former hippies who dodged the draft are still angry and want blood. No, I’m serious. They believe themselves to be the “Hall Of Justice” just like the old Saturday morning cartoon where Reid thinks he’s Superman, and Pelosi, Wonderwoman, etc. They have this wonky notion that for decades, the US government has “enforced stereotypes and servitude” on the masses but they fail to realize that our system provides for everyone to have an opportunity.

    These former activists long and hunger for their “glory days” when they really thought they made a difference. Truth is they were mostly an irritant and as many of them went into “reporting” (I will not call it “journalism”) their “peers” went into government and have outlasted many others. And anger is a very interesting thing. They have been angry since the first time their parents caught them with pot and took away their privileges. Anger festers, it steeps, it sits in a pool of bile and it grows and it even feeds upon itself.

    I see the anger in all of the actions that the leaders of the democratic party are doing.

    I make this recommendation. Next time you see a member of the democratic party….on video….and you have to do this not too often….turn the sound OFF. Just watch them. You have to know a little about body language. No, they are not on the pulpit screaming like Adolph…yet. But they, in their own ways, are every bit as angry as that little corporal who got rejected by the intellectual artist elite.

    I submit that they, the liberal democrats are primarily angry. Wether it stems from some perceived injustice from their childhood, or bullying in their teen years, or what-have-you. And what their actions smack of is vengeance, and it plays right into Obama’s desires for a “new world order” a la 1984. He truly does believe he’s smarter than anyone else. After all, he went to Harvard, right? Yet all his academic records are sealed. Bush’s weren’t. Nor were Cheney’s or anyone else’s in the republican party.

    So, Jasper, my point is not so much that you might or might not make it in Texas, but that you, yourself, by asking these questions are somewhat ready to accept that when the MSM talks to you, it might have an agenda; That when ANY politician opens their mouth, they are playing salesman.

    But I submit to you that at no time in my brief 48 years of life have I ever witnessed such out-and-out flagrant BS as from this administration. They are blowing smoke up everyone’s ass and almost half the population is buying it. Usually, we expect a certain amount of BS from the government…to not is to be foolish. They are politicians, after all.

    But to think that Obama is “really trying” to get people to “see the good” in any of his plans…well…I’m afraid you have to be more cynical and yes, mistrustful of them. Have you ever been to a car dealer to buy a car? Have you ever heard, “You know…I like you and I really want to make this deal work for you”. And if you did hear that, did you believe them?

    This is what’s going on RIGHT NOW. I have seen the “healthcare” bill. It is filled with heretofores and references paragraphs that reference other paragraphs and so on and so on.

    And to say nothing of a policy in it that ignores the potential of unexpected consequences.

    Jasper, you need to become more cynical. It is not a sin to be that way. Blind faith and trust in government is worse, believe me. You have to watch them, both republican AND democrat. Liberal democrats think they can save the world…but they want to do it with YOUR money.

  66. Rusty Shackleford says:


    Did I SAY I was a fan of George W Bush?

    I haven’t liked a president we’ve had since Reagan.

    And I’m sorry…but that line of “We won” is getting tired and played. I am playing fair.

    But Obama is NOT. He IS a socialist. He beleives government knows better than me…and YOU too. He wants to control you. He wants your money. He wants you dependent on the government for your food, your very life.

    I’m sorry you can’t see that. And has been pointed out, if a republican acted like him, I would be JUST as upset. I pride myself on being able to recognize crap when I hear it and this guy is loaded with it. Not to say that republicans aren’t as well. But as I said…this time…it’s coming at us in dumptruck loads.

    He is great at selling an idea. But it sounds to me like you are buying the words he’s saying…and not doing the research to find out if what he says is actually the truth. The AP for god’s sake actually brought forward the fact checks against his speech. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090910/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_health_care_fact_check

    And he’s made SOOOO many speeches….that tells me that there’s a problem right off the bat.

    It’s sales, it’s schtick and you, my friend will come to regret the day when you are dependent on the government for everything you need from housing, to your transportation (No, you live to close to your work…you may NOT have a car) and so on.

    Look at nations that have adopted all this socialist crapola….Sweden, Denmark, the UK, Canada. And you have to do it looking for the parts that you don’t agree with. I lived in Germany…I lived in the UK. YOU DON’T WANT WHAT THEY ARE SELLING.

    You have former lifelong citizens of European nations who live here now…they have little to say that’s good about their homeland.

    I just spoke to one yesterday. From the UK….he’s my age and NO WAY he says is he going back there to live.

    He gave me a list of reasons with healthcare being the A, No. 1 reason.

    What makes you think that after their systems have all gone broke…and are so poorly managed…what makes you think OUR government can do it any better? Please…tell me how layer upon layer of bureaucracy can make it better?

    • Flession says:

      I can’t say much, but I just spent a half hour just reading the exchanges on this.

      Truly amazing work, guys. This guy was a piece of work and unfortunately, he’s gone again, it seems, because I was about to respond to a point of his until it went away.

      Pro, you are the man.

  67. proreason says:

    Some S&L’ers may have followed the “debate” this week with Jasper / George W, who may be a Moveon plant. Steve has banned him but most of his posts are still here.

    He published an outrageous list of outright lies and misrepresentations about the Bush Administration that I didn’t have time to respond to yesterday. The list implied that The Moron has merely continued stimuli that Bush started, and even to a lesser extent than did Bush. Steve deleted the list, rightly so, but if you saw it, it might have created some doubts in your mind about whether the Moron’s administration is simply carrying on the Bush Adminstration’s policies, one of the pet lies of the Left.

    So from memory of Jasper’s list, here is the truth about those lies.

    The Bush Spring 2008 Stimulus of 152 Billion – It’s true it was called a stimulus, but it was 100% tax rebates paid to people below an income threshold of 150K for couples. That hardly compares to the 787 Billion payoff for political cronies “stimulus” the Moron rammed down our throats in 2009. By the way, GNP grew by 3.2% in the second quarter of 2008, so the 152B package worked as intended. It stimulated the economy, or at least, the economy did rebound.


    200B Stimulus to Fannie Mae and 200B Stimulus to Freddie Mac in July 2008 – Those were capital infusions to the GSEs, capped at $100B each in July 2008. The capital is in exchange for preferred stock designed to give a 10-12% return. It was estimated at the time that $25B would be all that was required. The limit was lifted to 200B IN 2009. These were not stimuli. They were limited capital infusions and probably necessary. Yes, they were an expansion of government control, but those entities were generally considered to be backed by the government anyway (which was a big part of why they failed). In September, the government took over Fannie Mae completely.

    I haven’t seen a lot of debate about the wisdom of those action, but given the fact that the GSE’s owned a very high percentage of the loan-to-losers that Democrats forced down our throats, and given that they were about to go belly-up, there is little question something had to be done. To compare that effort to The Moron’s 787B payoff to cronies is false and stupid.


    The $700 billion Wall Street Bailout – No question this happened on Bush’s watch. It will be controversial for decades. There were circumstances that made it unique in all of American history and we should be careful what we say about it for that reason. I’ve been too flippant about it, for example.
    In July 2008, the Secretary of Treasury, Henry Paulsen, declared that the economy was sound. It’s a famous quote. Yet two months later, on Sept 18, he and Bernanke went to Bush and declared that The Treasury needed $700B IMMEDIATELY or the world’s financial system would fail, and the globe would be plunged into the Dark Ages.

    That alone should make you wonder about what really happened at that time.

    As for Bush’s actions, consider this. Suppose you are the President and that your two top economic advisors tell you that you must act immediately or the entire world economy will fail. You aren’t an economist. They don’t say it will fail in a year or a month. They say it will fail tomorrow. What would you do? Well, it’s easy enough to say now that he should have called in some other, non-Democrat advisors, and tell everybody to go into a room and sort it out for a few days. But he didn’t, and the result is that we have a 700B (possible) bogie to contend with. Under the circumstances of the day, even Newt Gingrich, one of the staunchest and smartest conservatives around, reluctantly supported the bill.

    From the perspective of a year later, those events look like a classic Alinsky ploy. Create a catastrophe that appears to require immediate and dramatic action that forwards you own agenda. That is what happened. I believe the crisis was deliberately created by Soros and Goldman Sachs, and I believe Paulsen and Bernanke either panicked themselves or were partially under the sway of extreme liberal thinking. Both are life-long Democrats. Paulsen is an ex Goldman Sachs CEO. Bernanke is a liberal academic in hard-left academia. It isn’t surprising that they would immediately push for the maximum big-government solution as the only solution.
    But given the lay of the land at that exact moment in time, it’s hard to fault Bush too much, and it’s wrong to think that he used the events to push the country toward socialism.

    The Bush GM bailout It was 17.4 billion, not 25 billion as Jasper claimed. Bush did that because GM and Chrysler were on the verge of immediate collapse. He rightly felt that as a President with one month left in office, it would be inappropriate for him to impose a solution to that situation. He didn’t nationalize GM and Chrysler. It was simply a holding action to prevent a potential disaster that would be blamed on Republicans forever. It certainly wasn’t considered a stimulus


    In summary, Bush reacted to unique events that were portrayed as crises and probably were. There is no way his actions can be considered identical to The Moron’s fascist actions to take-over industries and deliberately run-up unsustainable debt. Bush took some actions that are easy to criticize today with the benefits of hindsight, but all of his actions had bi-partisan support. And don’t forget that only congress has the power of the purse in our country and that the 2008 congress was Democrat. Even so, many Republicans and conservatives supported all of those actions. The actions were not hypocritical. They were honorable.
    To say that those actions justify Obama’s fascist takeovers of Banking, the Auto Industry and the proposed nationalization of Health Care is a flagrant lie.

  68. Reality Bytes says:

    The typical moveon type reminds me of Renfro from Dracula. “Oh, Mastah, can I have just one spider. Just one Juicy Spider?” “Thank you Mastah.”

    Really, you guys are pathetic. What happened? Oxygen deprevation from spending too many hours locked in your High School Locker?

  69. RightWinger says:

    “Hit me with everything you’ve got! Convince me!”

    Seems you have been hit with everything but the kitchen sink. I don’t see an inquiring mind on your part. I see somebody who is ignoring facts as they have been posted in cases with supported links for you to check out. Are you actually doing research or you just playing the part in order to see how far you can push everybody’s nerves?

  70. canary says:

    Gorge/”This is Jasper, by the way, but steve blocked me under that name. I don’t know, is debating me fun or do you all wish I would just go away?”

    Gorge, I guess it’s fun to you, picking out a conservative toned moniker and practicing Obomi Hitler mentality deception and trickery on the owner of this site.

    Debating you and the mainstream media’s and Obama’s lies is not fun. It’s heart wrenching to see the “nazi syndrome w/Czar” in America spreading around the globe, the attempt of the Fairness doctrine to take away 1st Amendment rights, to squash any voice that threatens to expose the lies.

    Just as Obama is self-admitted anti-state, and wishes the federal government to legislate the entire country, one should have the freedom to
    associate with those they have “common ground” with. Not all go to the same denomination church, forced to read the same religous doctrine, or live in a state where you have pride, feel it’s your home, or wish to move to a state to your liking. Why force fish out of water and take from our individuality.
    Obama is narcissistic megalomaniac, who’s writings’ and statements have made it clear he believes he is a superior being, above anyone and everyone he has been in contact with his entire life. His personality disorders and defects make it imossible for him to see any other views or beliefs other than his own. He does not believe in the simplicity that two heads are better than one. It’s his way only, and he is determined to force his pill down the worlds throats, at any costs. Obama’s statements that he has no belief system as to life after death, which may contribute to his lack of morals and values, that leads him to lie, decieve, cheat, threaten, bear false witness, and organize with those of the same like. Whatever deception it takes for him to get his one and only way, and no consequences, now or here-after.

    Gorge/Could you let me know which sites are for wide open debate?
    ,.. I am totally bored by talking only to people I agree with…if the Libs and Cons could communicate.

    You know you can blog all over the internet at any media, newspaper, site, to your heart’s content for fun. I can’t speak for Steve, but this is a conservative site, for those that want common ground, a haven, to meet, against the heart-wrenching dishonest propaganda the rest of this country feels comfortable and placid in accepting. Ignorance of people to believe the mainstream media and Obama is some briliant savior to the world, “and it can’t happen here”. Placid Americans are at a height in this country; having no idea what is even going on, other than reality TV shows.
    I do not wish to discuss politics with an Obomie neighbor, who recently rehashed America had 9/11 coming, which was heard at the time. Who wants to lie and argue for 20 minutes there isn’t even a health bill writtten, when I know she keeps up daily with Obomie’s deceptive agenda.

    George, hope you enjoyed your deception, as far as your young children, I could only take you seriously on such a funny statement, when you start checking what your children are required to read in schools. When 4th graders are required to read books, found in libraries and book stores in “young adult” sections….profanity, violence, oh, and Obama’s trash, taxes are paying for.

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